New Historical Breakthrough on Wanglang?

[Redfish]

Been looking through history sections on sites lately for comparison to some writing I'm putting together out here in Shanghai. I already made a post referring to Shifu Tunk's page, which he was good enough to respond to.

Was looking at the updated history pages on the Hokiu.com site of Master Lee Kam Wing.

I have two older copies of his Secrets of Seven Star book from before the latest glossy editions started to come out. Also, I'm familiar with his clan teachings. As with most of us, the books talk about the 12 keyword formula. I know that in his new books he redifines them as 31 keywords, but I got a bit of a shock when I saw that the history section has changed to reflect this.

The legend of Wanglang there now reads that Wanglang devised 31 keywords.

Is there some new discovery I'm not aware of? I'm not a member at MQ, maybe it has been discussed there already? Please fill me in, thanks.

Redfish.

[mantis108]

It's Christmas season. Can't there be truce with the War on Discrepancey? What's with this new role being the web and media policing business? BTW, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to Mr. Pel and the Shanghai contingent.

Personally, I don't want to get into another politically charged flame war with you or anyone else. But I believe in freedom of speech which is a right that you are exercising. We do not know the exact reason why you want to poke holes at others' believes, teachings and publications (website included). For that alone it's an unfair judgement rendered on the individual(s). I believe it would be fair if you first state your position and objective instead of setting a laced trap (as your group always love to do IMHO) and bait those who got emotionally stirred by your accusation(s). I have good faith that you are trying to point to a developing trend that has in your view(s) escaped the mantis community at large.

As for the keywords and the origin of it, let's hear your version and why you believe it is more "kosher" than Sifu Lee's before we get into indepth discussion which seems to be what you "really" are interested in. Not rocking the boat doesn't count btw. I am all for a little brain massage with a bit of keyboard sparring with this wonderful forum.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Redfish]

Mantis108

State your own opinion on the topic. Or if as you say you dont want to get involved then dont reply at all.

My position is quite clear in the first post.

You however, write that you dont want to get involved - but then you do. You write you believe in freedom of speech but imply that it shouldn't have been said. You say you dont know the reason I 'poke holes' but believe 'in good faith' that you know what I'm doing. Finally, you ask me to talk about the legitimacy of the keywords - when the topic is about making your own innovation then writing that someone in the past did it.

If you don't like it, that's fair enough, but please don't hijiack the thread with off topic drivel that makes no sense.

[mantid1]

I think if you could believe that wang lang ever lived and created the 12 word formulae you could believe there is a 31 word formulae.

The wang lang story is a hard one to prove anyway....but I think I have figured it out.

I think that Wang was a Taoist and became a Taoist immortal that is still living today!

He is spreading his taoist beliefs in the form of santa clause.

I feel there is enough evidence to prove my theory. Think about it. Why would there be "8" reindeer and "12" days of Christmas? The same numbering system he used for his fighting theories. From what I understand the number "3" has some meaning in Chinese culture....heaven, earth, man........Chi, jing, shen...so Have you ever noticed that it is almost always "Ho, Ho, Ho".....always three.

Keeping with Taoist beliefs that good energy comes back to you.....if your good you get gifts.....and bad a lump of coal.

So Redfish I think you may have figured out 108......he does live up norh...I think he may have figured this out for himself a long time ago. Since he lives closer to the pole than most he wants to keep the info to himself. There may be a disciple power play going on up there also!

I agree, he should make posts based on facts and theories like mine.

[Redfish]

"I think if you could believe that wang lang ever lived and created the 12 word formulae you could believe there is a 31 word formulae."

Mantid1: That's a fair point. But not THE point.

From writing that Wanglang named 31, it goes that all the teachers in the lineage after used that too. Which they clearly didn't. So the point is still innovating yourself, then claiming it was done earlier in the lineage.

If, like you say, it's ridiculous to speculate on Wanglang as he's legendary,and as you point out in joke form that the number itself is only abstract also, then you imply that it's also ridiculous to say that Wanglang had 31 keywords.

Anyway, I genuinely wanted to know the basis of it. I'm really interested. If any LKW family members think it's out of line to follow up on this in the forum then please PM me about it. No problem.

[bungbukuen]

Everyone knows the 31 key word thing is LKWs own innovation. Nothing wrong with it. There are many more principles than that we could label. But trying to pass it off as something Wang Lang explicitly wrote is total crap and everyone knows that. I even remember Mantis108 commenting on LKWs 31 key word formula innovations a while back in another thread. Seems strange to hear Mantis108 coming down hard on this, considering just a while back he trashed some TJTL guys out of Fujian province.

Now I know some people will probably say that the key words don’t matter anyway so why bother talking about it. This is true. But if so then why is LKW making such a big deal out of it and even trying to re-write an old legend. Sorry to sound like a grinch, but it sounds self serving to me.

BBK

[German Bai Lung]

Kai-Uwe,

you are smart enough and familiar enough with the english language to read english texts. You are also able to read it in chinese. So please do it!

The text said: Wong Long compiled these movements into what is known today as thirty-one formula keywords ...
The text didn´t say: Wong Long named it or wrote it down as 31 keywords!!! Thats a big difference!

known today - this means it could be originally named whatever, but (in the subjective view of Sifu Lee Kam Wing of course) now it is mostly known as 31 keywords. Thats all.
Not a big deal - not even worth a thread!

Merry Christmas and a happy new year Kai Uwe - and to all of the other readers!

[mantis108]

Mantid1,

HO, HO, HO ... (btw, there's Cantonese for good, good, good)

Okay, I figure you have come across my secret Santa manuscript then? Did you get the one with a little elf on the top left corner on the bottom page. I am just telling you there are lots of fake and cheap copies out there. You ain't gotten the real deal unless getting it from me. Oh, you are now on the Naughty list (the Yin list) and I will send my e.l.f. swat team to sling coal at you man! lol...

To Mr. Pel and the Shanghai Contingent,

All joke aside, Mr. Pel does have a good point. Why would Robert Hui (Mantis108) said 31 Keyword is an innovation and trash the Fujian TJTL guy and all of sudden he's coming to the defense of Sifu Lee Kam Wing, who he have never met in person? But please remember, I commented not passing judgement on Sifu Lee "innovation".

Well, it's simple. The difference between Sifu Lee and the Fujian TJTL is huge for one thing. Sifu Lee has been involved in spreading and promoting Mantis Kung Fu (whether you like it or not) and his lineage is clear and tracable. The Fujian TJTL in question won't even properly disclose his lineage. Sifu Lee does Tanglang and promote it as such despite the fact he has other MA experience. He is loyal to his lineage and his teacher. We have no doubt about that. Other other hand, the Fujian TJTL guy does just about everything including modern Wushu (seperate entity). I have always believe that modern Wushu is bad for you because it will get you forget about your Kung Fu root, which in the case of the Fujian TJTL guys seems to have proven my point that he's more interesting in self promotion and make money with his books and such. It's okay to experiment with all kinds of martial arts including, God forbids, modern Wushu but to that point that you forget your own root and heritage. That's unacceptable.

Now I express my opinions with no false pretence. I back my opinions with reasons and I don't hide behind an alter ego - Mantis108. Forgive me being blunt because I know you love to draw blood and I will give you blood. Mr. Pel please wait till you have published a book (available to the public with different editions) then you tell us whether you have full control over the editing and contents? It sounds to me that your experience with a publishing team or firm is somewhat limited. It's different from website publishing where you can do as you please including ego mast urbation. I would love to hear your contribution to the community rather than you trying to poke holes at other's teaching. A good teacher doesn't have to worry about what other does and there's no need to cut the other's line short to show yours is much longer. When this kind of attitude pass along to the students, that is the real concern of the Kung Fu community. We don't see things eye to eye but we need not be the arch nemeses to each other. You are an intelligent individual and have a passion for Kung Fu. I can respect that. Kung Fu word is different from the comics it's not the super heroes doing battles with the evil doers.

As much as I don't agree with Sifu Lee's 31 keywords, I respect Sifu Lee, who has done a lot for the community and I don't think it's fair to poke holes at someone's work with "suggestion" of wrong doing without even the courtesy of using your own real identity to express your "concern". BTW, I am sorry that the same can not be extended to the Fujian TJTL guy. You usually tactis in hacking away someone's integrity while pretending to be posing innocent statments with the assumption that others are oblivious to the intend of punishing the reputation of Sifu Lee (almost all the time) to me is impolite and even malicious. WuDe (martial morality) still needs to be observed eventhough this is a forum about Chinese Martial Arts.

I believe you needed closure from a martial arts page that you wish to forget. Frankly, I think there are many other ways to seek closure other than subversive attacks. In this joyous season of Christmas that is about the message of peace on earth to all, I invite you to find the inner peace and leave Sifu Lee alone for a change.

Sincerely,

Robert Hui
(Mantis108)

[Redfish]

To be fair.

Master Kai Uwe Pel did not make any of the posts on this thread or ask for them to be posted in anyway.

Redfish.

[Mi Hou Tao]

Mantis 108 and German Bai lung,

Please stop refering to Master kai in your posts,

None of the posts above are from Master Kai, and this has nothing to do with him, so please leave him out of it. Master Kai is a busy man and I doubt he cares what is written on this forum, but as a student of his it bothers me to see him implied in any of the discussions.
If Master Kai wants to post he will do so with his own name.
If you have any beef with his students feel free to pm me.

[German Bai Lung]

Please Shanghai Folks: don´t be hilarious with us!
I know when something is of root from Kai Uwe and whe n not. This is definetly his handwriting! So please ....

But to get it more clear for you:

a) Kai Uwe reads this and much other forums (I know this from lots of PMs) and a time ago he used to write under his own name. Now he preferrs to let write others or use another name ... whatever.

b) If the post from BBK, Redfish, MHT and others are really from students and not from Kai Uwe himself, then I wonder that a teacher let his students be so unrespectful to other lineages and other teachers of the same style! Thats really not very traditional! I myself called back a student who was unrespectful once in a forum of a fake school. That should be normal!
Also I wonder how such insight about the history and lineages occurs within students who even train Tang Lang for lets say 3 or 4 Years! Those students are busy with techniques and theory of their own school. And even when they are thinking about other Tang Lang familys they have such small knowledge, that normally they better shut up in the greater community!
Unless, yes unless they are tought to speak out loudly what the teacher had told them! Now, then I should make the direct answer to the teacher. Thats way more polite. So if Kai Uwe wants to know something about the keywords: above is my (in all subjectivity) answer.

If this is not from him in anyway: than folks: please leave the forum and ask your teacher before you begin to be disrespectful to other teachers!

[Redfish]

I made this thread, pointing out something freely available on the Hokiu site. It's my responsibility.

GBL: You said that in your view the language on the site does not imply what I thought it does.

I accept this as your reply, thank you. I have not posted on it anymore after that, as you see.

If you are still angry with me, and believe I don't have the right to comment on material publically available on the net, then, as I have said, PM me about it and you will find me to be reasonable.

[BeiTangLang]

Guys, cut the personal attacks. The discussion is a good one, but you need to stay on topic. Both sides have good points. Just agree to disagree and move on.

No reason to bring mention to those that are not taking part in the conversation nor anyone else that is not a part of the topic.

Re-directing a thread is indeed "hijacking".....Once again, Stay on topic!

~BTL


Oh, BTW, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to everyone.
Be Safe!

[German Bai Lung]

@Redfish: I´m not angry. The question in itself was ok. Just the way was a little bit offending. Anyway: my view is stated above.

@BTL: you are right. Sorry for any rants or nontopic argues!

[Three Harmonies]

BTL
Out of curiosity how much **** do we need to here from people before something is done? BBK, Redfish and others have been way overboard and rude to folks, yet they are allowed to continue trolling (see Luan Jie thread)!
One of the main reasons few people of respect post here anymore. I too have tired of trying to answer/ask anything on this forum because of the crap.
Thanks
Jake