Teaching and Accepting Responsibility

[lunghushan]

Yeah the first time I broke somebody's nose in training, I didn't really worry about it too much because he had done plenty of damage to me in the past, including a fractured jaw.

And at the time he had already hit me really hard several times and was coming for me like he was going to take my head off, and it was all I could do to get him off of me. My instructor actually kicked him out of the school about a week later.

But the second time, that was just stupidness on my part and lack of control. We were going fast and I was expecting the person to block as they had done several times before, but one time they didn't, and I hit them pretty hard.

I didn't spar for a couple of years after that. In fact, I quit the school shortly after it happened.

You need to be really careful of your training partners because you are trusting them just as much as they are trusting you. Ding them up too much and next time they might not be so nice with you.

[djcaldwell]

In my opinion there is no excuse for "intentionally" hurting your partner. But in any type of fight training there is one thing that is inevitable....YOU ARE GOING TO GET HIT. If you don't then either you are the best ever or more likely you're not really doing anything.

When I started my training back in the day we never used pads, gloves or anything so we had to learn from very early on control. But trust me when I tell you we took more than our fair share of bumps and bruises. I've caught a roundhouse to the nose, been punched and kicked countless times, hit with staffs (except for in the face thankfully) and never once did it deter me or my training brothers (and sisters) from continuing. Hell I'll never forget the first time I sparred with a girl. I was so leary of being too rough and she caught me dead on in the face - appologized and we moved on and I learned really fast not to underestimate anyone...and that I needed to get the hell out of the way of that hit.

Recently I took a hit right to the nose and started bleeding like a fool. The key thing is this...NONE OF MY PARTNERS EVERY INTENDED TO HURT ME or I THEM. Look you can have great control but the fact remains that you are not in 100% control of the situation. There are variables that you can not account for. If I feint and he tried to anticipate a move and my feint actually hit him then...oops. I wasn't going to smash him anyway so odds are it may sting but it's not going to create any lasting damage. I've tried to evade punches and evaded myself right into something else before...again it just happens and it's part of the training. There is also some benefit to getting hit...training yourself to get over that gunshyness or fear of being hit. You can't do that if everytime you get hit you walk away, get angry or stop. WORK THROUGH IT (within reason of course).

To quit because you accidentally hurt someone does neither yourself nor your partner any good. All you've learned is how to quit and not how to control yourself better next time and he never gets to learn what he should or could do going forward. So basically you may as well have just walked up to him and punched him in the face and said have a nice day.

If you don't mean to do it and you are "conscious" of your actions then your partner knows (or should know) that it was unintentional. I don't even like to call it an accident because honestly you were intent on hitting them just didn't mean to connect with the amount of force you did. Accident means I had no intent to ever come close to doing what I did. If I cut your ear off with a sword or stab you with a spear...THAT'S AN ACCIDENT (I would hope).

Control yourself...take the hit...suck it up and keep training.

[lunghushan]

Well when I broke the guy's nose the second time, I just didn't like my lack of control, and it made things very difficult at the school because he and everybody else were pretty mad.

Looking back at it now, I probably shouldn't have quit, but it just made things very difficult.

Anyway, now I don't aim at the nose. The nose is just too easy to hurt and break in sparring.

[cjurakpt]

are you serious? in the first clip, the guy throws a wild swing from out of left field with no notion of the range, then keeps moving forward after the swing with his head totally exposed, and basically runs into your arm, which, BTW, it looks like you even pulled back, so I'm gussing that you weren't throwing full force anyway

the second one, the guy looks like he's sleeping on the job: he had no preparation in his body structure to accept the technique or roll out properly - and you pause after the two lead in techs, so i'm assuming it was choreographed and he knew what to expect - looks like he slipped anyway, and it certainly doesn't look like you threw him full force to the ground by any means

maybe you could have had better control, but in both situations the "blame" was then at worst decidedly mutual if you didn't, IMHO

[Ben Gash]

You have to remember that he is the instructor here. He steps in with his body fully behind the shot in the first one, which is guaranteed to do damage (he's lucky it was just the nose) If you're going to wedge into your students like that then you need to just forearm them in the chest, otherwise you're going to have a ton of injuries and not many students.
On the second one BASIC HEALTH AND SAFETY man! You've done it once before and you're doing it on a concrete floor????? If he'd been injured you would have been found CRIMINALLY NEGLIGENT and that would be the end of your teaching.
Personally I try to avoid sparring with my students, at least until they're brown/black sort of level, as it avoids this sort of thing (also, if I'm sparring I'm not adequately supervising the class).

[mantis7]

Well, in the first clip he moved forward to close the gap and tap the other “arm swinging guy” in the face. That back fist was not heavy nor did it look like you were seeking to do damage. If you were seeking to do damage I am sure you would have followed through with the attack instead of pulling it back after impact. If you would have fully extended your attack he would have had more than a broken bone; especially if you put more force behind it.

As for the throw it is clearly obvious that at second 00:24/00:32 he lost timing and was unable to follow threw with the throw. He lost your timing, he instinctually tried to stop the throw but it was already too late. His momentum carried through and he was unable to fall properly but at least, it demonstrated how the throw really works. Re-watch seconds 24-26 and you will see he hesitates going with the throw. Hesitation equals some really screwed up landings believe me I know lol.

If you know anything about throws or locks you would know with a throw like that you do not hold onto the arm. If you did, instead of banging up his elbow and forearm when he fell he would be nursing a nice bump on his head. Watch seconds 24-26 again but this time picture him holding the arm which would have caused him fall splayed out with no ability to instinctually prop himself up. Also who knows if he held the arm he might have banged up the back of his head and the holding of the arm could have caused him to crash into the uke behind him and probably catch a knee in the face. But this is all speculative.

Ben please, review the clips again. He used footwork to move up and the guys swinging arms propelled him forward. If he stepped in with the full weight of his body his opponent would have been laid out. If you don’t believe me watch limited knock-back effect on his head 

The truth here you are not in the wrong and probably gave the guy in the first portion a wake up call. The best fights I have had were with my teacher. When I was ready he fought with me and tossed me around like a rag doll but it taught me that I could take the hardship. It forced me to move faster, train harder and do more than take his word for what worked and what didn’t. This type of training may not be everyone’s cup of tea but as martial artist we face to roads. We train because we love the art and there is no need to worry about the effectiveness of our styles. Or, we train hard and make sure what we learn is effective and not fantasy. To think we can dwell between these two roads will put more people in harms way even though we think we may be doing the right thing.


Cheers
Victor

[sunfist]

I can hear evil spirits in the first slo-mo, this may well be your problem.

Beyond this, if 'control' is not working in ensuring peoples safety, you should move away from a control based approach and instead rely on more/safer equipment. Then thin it back down with the more advanced people.

Why the hell are your hands so low though? Teach your people to ****ing protect themselves.

[螳螂(Mantis)]

You don't need a third-party perspective on this. You know what you did was wrong so just trust what you know deep down inside and don't be afraid to say sorry. Just look at things through the eyes of the people you hurt.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I didn't see anything wrong with those clips. We're not playing badmitten here; accidents can happen. In my professional opinion, it does not seem to be a lack of control during the sparring, it just seemed like the other guy's defense wasn't there and a technique slipped in. No biggie.

As far the pre-arranged stuff - no malice either. It just seemed like it wasn't well-practiced and the guy who got thrown wasn't very good at going with the technique or falling properly. In an of itself, it was a pre-planned throw which did not appear to have ill-intentions.

happy holidays all!

[cjurakpt]

You have to remember that he is the instructor here. He steps in with his body fully behind the shot in the first one, which is guaranteed to do damage (he's lucky it was just the nose) If you're going to wedge into your students like that then you need to just forearm them in the chest, otherwise you're going to have a ton of injuries and not many students.

I don't see any stepping in with body weight and i definitely don't see any wedging - I also see an immediate retraction of the contact arm as soon as contact was made; and I don't see the guy's head snapping back, I see him keep going rather than having to stop immediately: to me, that indicates a mild to moderate amount of force that just unluckily hit a relatively more fragile area; also, the guy was a brown belt, so it's not as if he is a rank beginner either...

On the second one BASIC HEALTH AND SAFETY man! You've done it once before and you're doing it on a concrete floor????? If he'd been injured you would have been found CRIMINALLY NEGLIGENT and that would be the end of your teaching.

re: concrete: any teacher who does train with his students to take falls on concrete is, IMHO, doing them a huge favor by giving them a wake up call as to the reality of how to fall in a parking lot as opposed to on a nice padded mat - a lot of the sloppy technique you see from falls is related to the fact that the mat "takes of the slack" and covers up your mistakes - all that slapping out stuff with the hands and what not doesn't work on concrete at all! you have to do a different sort of tuck and roll approach to keep from getting a world of hurt put on you; as for criminal negligence, that's a bit of a stretch: he didn't even throw the guy full force, just sent him off a bit - looks to me ike the guy wasn't focused on what was happening either...

Personally I try to avoid sparring with my students, at least until they're brown/black sort of level, as it avoids this sort of thing (also, if I'm sparring I'm not adequately supervising the class).

I think that as the instructor you'd want to spar with them from day one - if your control is as good as you say it should be, then what's the problem? personally, when i was teaching, I sparred with beginners all the time, going nice and easy, slower, using only basic techs - there was really never a problem as far as i remember...as for supervising a class, why not just have everyone watch you while you spar with studetns? I used to love watching my teachers spar people my own level, gave me an idea of what to emulate...

[Shaolin Wookie]

I'm not an instructor. I'm just a student.

Now, I'm not judging. SanHe has always seemed like a stand up guy. But whether or not I was prepared to defend myself in a sparring match with my intructor, if he hurt me, I would lose trust in his ability to teach appropriately. My instructors warn me before every session: "take it at your pace, and I'll match it." If I come in too fast, and they know their fast reactions might put my health at risk, they tell me to slow down and get control of myself. They'll back off and stop the session if I don't heed the warning. And when I catch a nasty warning blow to the ribs, I get the message really quick.

But if I did get hurt (broken bone, wrenched muscle, joint fracture)
by the Master of the school....I don't think I'd ever be able to trust him fully again. Perhaps you shouldn't spar the lower students under normal conditions. Just do some slow, step=by=step sparring. Sparring higher level students--hell, it's first come first served.

As for placement of blame--nobody wants to hurt someone else in the school. And if someone does want to hurt me, that's the end of the match. It's just too easy to kick out a knee or break an elbow or wrist. And these things can really do damage in personal lives, professional lives, and in one's martial studies. If someone broke my wrist, arm, or leg, I wouldn't be able to work. Couldn't pay rent...etc.

'Nuff said. And I'd hold the instructor responsible. After all, he had promised a safe place to train in self-defense.

Taking responsibility for your actions is always priority number one. But like I said--you seem like a stand-up guy....and **** does sometimes happen.

Just make sure it isn't becoming a habit.

[Fuzzly]

If I am training with other students, injuries don't bother me. Even if under the strict supervision of the instructor, as was my injury. (By the way, I had ACL replacement last Friday, and other than the surgeoun <sp?> botching the hamstring and tearing it, it went well.)

But, had I been working with my sifu and this happened? I don't think I would trust them as much, unless it was obviously my fault. I know instructors are human and make mistakes, but I do expect them to have only the best of control.

This dosn't stop me from working with my Sifu. I would never call what we do "sparring" as that would imply me being able to do anything unless he let me =)

It's definately more of a controlled excercize.

[Ben Gash]

as for supervising a class, why not just have everyone watch you while you spar with studetns? I used to love watching my teachers spar people my own level, gave me an idea of what to emulate...

Because that would effectively mean me employing another instructor. The person supervising the class would need to be insured, and would need the other bits of paper required to validate the insurance. People are successfully sued when people are injured when the instructor is busy sparring, and your insurance may well not cover you because you have not complied with the stipulations. Regardless of what the other students are doing, I am responsible for them at all times.
What can my students learn from sparring with me, really? How to get their asses kicked? They are paying me to teach them, which is very difficult for me to do when I'm sparring. I may take 20 seconds to illustrate a point in context, but really that's all I should be doing. If I watch 2 students sparring, then I can coach both of them.
As for the rest of it, you're misunderstanding me. He does step into his students space with his body aligned behind his arm. Therefore the actual punch itself doesn't need to be inherently powerful to do a fair bit of damage (as it did).
I have no problems with training on hard floors, and indeed I think it can be good for students, but it needs to be done in a safe and progressive manner. The students need to be used to the surface, be used to breakfalling on the hard floor, and start off in a controlled manner, building up speed as the students progress. My issue with Sanhe is that he practiced it once and then flung the guy full force on the concrete. If the guy had been injured then no jury would have had any hesitation in finding him negligent and awarding damages. If he'd seriously injured the guy, then he would have been deemed criminally negligent.
As the last two posters have said, it is very difficult to trust teachers after such instances, because they are failing in their duty of care to their students.

[djcaldwell]

Because that would effectively mean me employing another instructor. The person supervising the class would need to be insured, and would need the other bits of paper required to validate the insurance. People are successfully sued when people are injured when the instructor is busy sparring, and your insurance may well not cover you because you have not complied with the stipulations. Regardless of what the other students are doing, I am responsible for them at all times.

For that matter you can be sued for a student hurting them as well. Actually, if you have a waiver in your contract then the rest falls under the category of assumed risk. They are participating in an activity in which there is a greater risk of injury. As for your insurance, every company is different so I can't comment on their guidelines but I'm sure they know the nature of the business and that 90% of schools out there don't have "certified" instructors teaching at every moment. Hell, if that was the case then I would never have learned anything anywhere. My older training brothers taught class quite often. They weren't certified nor on the payroll.

What can my students learn from sparring with me, really? How to get their asses kicked? They are paying me to teach them, which is very difficult for me to do when I'm sparring. I may take 20 seconds to illustrate a point in context, but really that's all I should be doing. If I watch 2 students sparring, then I can coach both of them.

Whereas the latter part is very true, you may be underestimating your students or at least the value of touching hands with their sifu. I've learned more from a few moments of touching hands with my Sifu than I have with anyone else. I may not immediately understand exactly what happened - hell sometimes it may take a week or two before it pops in my head and I realize "OMG That's what he did..."

But there is great value in feeling a technique or strike executed properly (and being on the receiving end of an application from someone who executes is properly once, to me anyway, is of greater value than doing it 10 times wrong with someone else.

As for the rest of it, you're misunderstanding me. He does step into his students space with his body aligned behind his arm. Therefore the actual punch itself doesn't need to be inherently powerful to do a fair bit of damage (as it did).
I have no problems with training on hard floors, and indeed I think it can be good for students, but it needs to be done in a safe and progressive manner. The students need to be used to the surface, be used to breakfalling on the hard floor, and start off in a controlled manner, building up speed as the students progress. My issue with Sanhe is that he practiced it once and then flung the guy full force on the concrete. If the guy had been injured then no jury would have had any hesitation in finding him negligent and awarding damages. If he'd seriously injured the guy, then he would have been deemed criminally negligent.
As the last two posters have said, it is very difficult to trust teachers after such instances, because they are failing in their duty of care to their students.

I don't know what the laws are by you but being deemed criminally negligent is not so cut and dry - plus again the whole assumed risk factor. Yes, there is an expectation of safety to be provided BUT this is a fighting art and the risk assumed is much greater than say baseball.

There are different calibers of students and people. Some can get their noses broken (accidentally) and blame everyone and then quit. While others stop the bleeding and keep on truckin'. It's the difference between love and like, hobby and part of your life. I don't do KF for a living but it is in every part of my life. So injury, short of malice, will not reflect poorly in my eyes on my instructor or my training brothers. I have injured my share of people (not bragging) without intent and was sorry afterwards. Hell, my buddy was out for 3 months because I dropped him on his back - it just happened so fast that I couldn't brace him and he didn't expect it. No ones fault...it happens. If it was my sifu who did it I don't think he would have felt any different. But everyone is different.

[Ben Gash]

Actually, if you have a waiver in your contract then the rest falls under the category of assumed risk.

Not true. While there is an assumption of risk and an understanding that some injuries will occur, and that genuine accidents will happen, there is an expectation that the risk will be managed and minimised. If inadequate supervision or poor risk management are significant contributing factors then you are by definition negligent and liable.