How can i tell between good/bad instructor?

[stubbs]

My kungfu instructor teaches the class some qigong every now and then, but i want to do it more regulary, the are several tai chi classes around me and i was wondering how i can tell a good teacher from a bad one or doesn't it matter?

when i was deciding what kungfu teacher to go with it was easy, i sparred them, looked at their forms, concepts, and how i got along with them.

but with tai chi, for me it seems harder because a tai chi/ chi kung(qigong) technique is designed to work for you internaly, rather than externaly on an opponant.

any suggestions?

thanks in advance.
stubbs

"satisfaction loses,and humility gains"

[les paul]

It's the same in internal gung fu.

Provided that your humble......If an instructor won't cross hands/sparr with you, walk away.....most of the time they are not teaching the martial side.

This could be good or bad, depending on what your looking for.

Paul

[Chris McKinley]

Hi stubbs,

RE: "...but with tai chi, for me it seems harder because a tai chi/ chi kung(qigong) technique is designed to work for you internaly, rather than externaly on an opponant." That's partly incorrect. Internal "techniques", postures, etc. are certainly designed to work internally on you, promoting qi flow, balancing the meridians, increasing reserves, etc. However, Taiji's movements do not ONLY have qigong applications. They are designed to work quite well as combat applications against an opponent. So it's not really a case of "either/or", but rather "both/and".

At the VERY least, ask to see a demonstration of the combat applications of several Taiji postures. If the instructor is unable or unwilling to provide such a demonstration, I suggest you look elsewhere. Normally, it is quite common for legitimate instructors of various Kung Fu styles to refuse giving a demo of their stuff to people who aren't yet students, perhaps even the norm in some places. Taijiquan is somewhat of a special case in this regard, though. Even with millions of daily practitioners of Taiji worldwide, relatively few know or even know about the combat applications of the art.

In my experience, the few instructors with legitimate knowledge of Taijiquan as a fighting art are usually more than happy to demonstrate it to you, since they are aware that they are "competing", in a sense, with the multitude of watered-down instructors out there. Best of luck! :)

[This message was edited by Chris McKinley on 09-09-01 at 12:00 PM.]

[GLW]

"Provided that your humble......If an instructor won't cross hands/sparr with you, walk away.....most of the time they are not teaching the martial side. "

What a BS generalization of any art.

Why should anyone cross hands with a person who just walks in off the street?

I have visitors come to my class - my teacher's class as well and ask such questions.

When I am in MY class, my time belongs to me or to my students. To take away from that to try to impress or convince some prospective new student who has made NO committment to me is a waste of my time and cheating my students.

Should a visitor press this point, I may show them something but I would probably never accept them as a student. More rude people without patience I do NOT need.

In my teacher's class, it would be the same. they may get their a$$ handed to them on a platter..but they would never be allowed back in the door as well.

Watch a class, ask questions, but remember you are a guest and visitor. As a guest, I extend hospitality to you. As a visitor, you do not abuse it.

[EARTH DRAGON]

I would have to agree with GLW, If a person walks in off the street and asks to spar or play hands with the sifu, they are looking for nothing more than their ego to attepmt to be inflated. further more is shows great dissrepect to challenge some one with whom you are looking to teach you. Try walking into a resturant and tell the chef you want to see how good he cooks, you would have a better chance.
One way to tell is by his posture , fluidity of movement and his creditability or teacher! I would be more persuaded to learn from a chinese or a person with a chinese teacher! please do not take this the wrong way but closer to the source is always better!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Kumkuat]

knowing some "fighting application" is not the true test if the instructor knows anything. Many people that knows "fighting applications" do it externally. So you have to find someone that will "show fighting applications" with internal strenght not external strength.

[Shooter]

In finding a good teacher, you shouldn't concern yourself with their abilities. What they can do with their skill has nothing to do with their ability to empower others with the skill.

I don't think you'll be able to discern much from their showing techniques found in the postures anyway. That's just crazy.

The only way to know if someone has good teaching skill is to spend the time and gain the experience of having them give you regular lessons. It's a win-win situation as long as you keep an open mind.

If you're looking for combative skills in the art, look for a teacher who claims to have that covered in their curriculum. They should be able to show you something right there, on the first day. It should be simple and effective and not require weeks or months to have proficiency with. If what they show is a complicated sequence with any kind of set-up, then they're teaching combat on a theoretical level.

As advised by a number of respected TCMAs teachers, if there isn't a bin full of well worn gloves, head-gear, etc, somewhere in the kwoon, if there isn't a heavy bag and some kind of training mat, then the likelihood of learning practical fighting skill is minimal. That doesn't mean there's nothing to be gained though.

Ultimately, Tai Chi is a hand-to-hand fighting art. Real H2H can't be demonstrated in a sterile environment. The training might include lessons outside in a park, parking lot, alleyway, anywhere. Lessons should also cover 'eclectic' weapons recognition, acquisition, and retention, as well as countering the attacker's weapon/s.

A big plus is if the training addresses the emotional stressing involved in all violent encounters and covers post-event strategies to help relieve the stresses one inevitably is left to deal with after such an encounter.

That isn't to say that the instructor should have a PHD in some branch of psych-science. They should however have a practical knowledge of what's involved with the mental processes of pre and post-fight stress.

We don't live in a perfect world though. You have to make the best of what's available. Good luck.

[bamboo_ leaf]

You are not in a position to judge anything.
With out some basic knowledge you won’t understand what you are really seeing.
Many people talk of fighting, this to me is very funny, as most people cannot even meet the basic requirements of really relaxing to play TC.

As for internal strength again most people haven’t felt it to really know the difference.
There are much more basic requirements to meet before you could even address this.

My advice would be to see how you feel about the teacher and the class. Talk with the students and see how they like it. If your overly concerned about fighting you probably won’t get it anyway and will not be able to learn it because your to filled with the idea of opposition. (fighting)

When you stop thinking of fighting then maybe you will meet some one who can wants to teach you.

I occasionally have people ask me about my TC in the parks; some want to learn and ask to try different things with me. Usually I push them out or make them fall. Even if I wanted to teach them which at this point I wouldn’t they wouldn’t be able to learn anything because their mind has to much in it all ready.

A famous teacher (linage) is not always good either as you might not have the skill to learn the things that he/she is teaching. Being Chinese is no guarantee of anything.

So again I would look for something that felt good, wait a couple of years or until you have a basis’s for understanding then decide if the teacher / class meets your expectations.

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

[les paul]

Provided that your humble......If an instructor won't cross hands/sparr with you, walk away.....most of the time they are not teaching the martial side. "

What a BS generalization of any art.

Why should anyone cross hands with a person who just walks in off the street?

I have visitors come to my class - my teacher's class as well and ask such questions.

When I am in MY class, my time belongs to me or to my students. To take away from that to try to impress or convince some prospective new student who has made NO committment to me is a waste of my time and cheating my students.

Should a visitor press this point, I may show them something but I would probably never accept them as a student. More rude people without patience I do NOT need.

In my teacher's class, it would be the same. they may get their a$$ handed to them on a platter..but they would never be allowed back in the door as well.

Watch a class, ask questions, but remember you are a guest and visitor. As a guest, I extend hospitality to you. As a visitor, you do not abuse it.


End quote......From GLW




Sorry, I don't buy the car without a test drive!!!

And I don't recomend anyone else do either.

Including my students !!!!

Please....... In my twenty years of doing martial arts....If I had a dime for every fake, drunk, wannabe with no actual experience in a real fight, that I'd seen teaching martial arts, I'd be rich!

The only time I would ask to cross hands with an instructor is if I questioned their martial prowess in the first place. Second, I'd approach in the most humble manner(yes, I've have walked into a place and requested a match, but it was after a class) I was refused, I figured I was right in my original assuption and departed with no bad feelings by all.

Please...... I think your taking to much offense in my original post. I can only assume someone came into your school questioned someone (maybe you or your students) and did ask for a demo which you probably refused and figured you some how lost face.

If you feel that way fine, However....

The particular time I asked to cross hands, I wasn't even refering to the head instructor, I said anyone would do. This would help me gauge
the skill of the school

I'm not going to go into how to tell a legit school when you see one, that's for another post and another day.

However...

It doesn't take long in the world of martial arts for someone to be able to tell an alpha male from a beta male....


If you suspect an instructor's prowess, I can't think of a better way of finding out if your assumptions are correct other than by crossing hands with him or one of his top students.



What's the worst that can happen? You get your butt stomped, oooooh like that hasn't happened to us all before in some way or fashion. (if you haven't had your ass stomped before, don't bother responding to the post, it would speak volumes of your training!!!!!)

If you get stomped, then you get in line with everyone else, fully confident that your new instructor is legit.



Now if the reverse happens! You will think you did right in asking to see the goods prior to payment.

By the way, I do teach and I give time to people who questions my methods or my prowess.

I got nothin to hide......

That doesn't mean they get an immediate one on one. I tell them stand down till the end of class then will talk.

I figure I don't know it all and if someone walks through my doors and can hand my ass to me on a silver platter then I better be in his class the next day! Come hell or High water!!!!!


"This is my perspective on the matter, doesn't mean it's right, it's just my perspective."

Paul
Michigan

[HuangKaiVun]

Read Nigel Sutton's book "Applied Tai Chi", stubbs.

[GLW]

"Please....... In my twenty years of doing martial arts....If I had a dime for every fake, drunk, wannabe with no actual experience in a real fight, that I'd seen teaching martial arts, I'd be rich!"

And challenging a teacher when you are a guest prevents this HOW?

"The only time I would ask to cross hands with an instructor is if I questioned their martial prowess in the first place. Second, I'd approach in the most humble manner(yes, I've have walked into a place and requested a match, but it was after a class) I was refused, I figured I was right in my original assuption and departed with no bad feelings by all."

A begginner is in no position to know what to ask. If you question their prowess, why bother in the first place. Move on and find someone else. You will be a lot happier and you WILL have applied a basic principle of Taijiquan in the process.

"Please...... I think your taking to much offense in my original post. I can only assume someone came into your school questioned someone (maybe you or your students) and did ask for a demo which you probably refused and figured you some how lost face."

Talk about a ladder of inference...

Not at all. I have had students who disrupted my class with such attitudes and had to almost hurt them. It is a waste of my time, unnecessary, and disruptinve to everyone else.

I have also had friends who met such challenges only to have their school subjected to arson, drive bys, their car vandalized...all because they won. For the teacher, it is a total no win situation.

Such students are also almost always approaching with a full rather than an empty cup.

In Taijiquan, I have had such people come in, I have also had them come in and want me to teach them advanced things from the start. To date, NONE have had even the start of decent basics.

Again, I view it as a waste of my time. I don't need to sell what I do. I will answer any questions but beyond that, I can't be bothered. NO SINGLE STUDENT is worth the hassle just off the street. Once I know a student, I will bend over backward for them...that is like family...but not just in the door. Face doesn't enter into it. It is just a waste of time and energy.


"I'm not going to go into how to tell a legit school when you see one, that's for another post and another day."

Yet, that was his original question.

"However...

If you suspect an instructor's prowess, I can't think of a better way of finding out if your assumptions are correct other than by crossing hands with him or one of his top students."

Why bother. If you have such suspicions, move on. It is faster and probably more correct 80% of the time. To cross hands in such an instance is like saying "This food tastes like it is spoiled. Let me take another bite and see"


"What's the worst that can happen? You get your butt stomped, oooooh like that hasn't happened to us all before in some way or fashion. (if you haven't had your ass stomped before, don't bother responding to the post, it would speak volumes of your training!!!!!) "


Been thrown across the room on my ass, picked up and trown back six feet from a punch....etc...all it told me was that I needed to train...it told me nothing about the teacher except that they knew more than me. That is a far cry than telling me what depth their knowledge really was.

"That doesn't mean they get an immediate one on one. I tell them stand down till the end of class then will talk."

I don't care to waste my time there. I teach till late and have a day job. I am not willing to give up my personal time on matters of someone else wanting to test me. I simply tell them..."Oh, you may be right, look elsewhere" Of course, this is a far cry from them starting trouble. In that case, the end result for them is not pleasant.

[Nexus]

It usually only takes about 6 months before an instructor is comfortable responding to pretty much whatever martial request you have. Usually they want to make sure you are commited, and willing to learn and practice the methods they show you. Honestly, if you find a teacher you think has what you are looking for, but you are lets say, 80% sure, give them 6 months to show you that 20% thats lacking, and by then you should also be able to ask them to show you what you want to see, if of course you are ready for it. It is pointless in the internal arts though for a teacher to explain things that will go right over your head, especially if you are not serious about the art enough to practice it as they once had to/do now.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

[les paul]

I just gotta ask.....

With around a 1000 posts to your name and being on-line for around 24 months, making the average number of posts per month to be around 41, how do you do it.

I'm sorry, just gotta ask!

Where do you find the time to teach, let alone part your deep wisdom onto your students?

With 41 posts a month, "hell that's alot time spent at a desk"

You must have a day job at a computer, "Yes, it must be how you do it."

Hmmmmmm Hmmmmmmmmm Hmmmmmmmmm Hmmmmmmmmmmm???????


Somehow I got the feeling your going to tell me you pratice and teach Yang style taijiquan.


Not that I think there's anything wrong with that.

And.......

Not that I think somethings not right with you either, but since your wisdom is so heavy (heavy enouph to say that my comments were BS)

You must be a somebody!

You should have let me know just how important you are from the start. he he he he he

I bet all your students know just how important you are? right?

Then I could of hung my head in shame right from the start.


"I need to learn better time management, then I could post more often like you.

Got any advise on managing time?

I'm having trouble working and teaching and training myself, oh yea, I left out occasional tournaments I and my students do on the week-ends.

[GLW]

Spanky or is it NOT TO CALL YOU,

your tone is one of accusation. You obviously have not thought much about how to ask a question to get a valid response.

"With around a 1000 posts to your name and being on-line for around 24 months, making the average number of posts per month to be around 41, how do you do it.

I'm sorry, just gotta ask!"

I use this board to turn my work off a bit. I report to my job at 7 AM, I work 11 hour days, I then report to my classes at 7 PM and drag my butt home around 11 PM every day.

I have Friday afternoon off for personal time.

I teach 3 days a week and I train with my teacher 3. In my classes, I am in the front line doing the drill first and then checking out my students. It IS about time management.

I TRAIN with my students. When they do Tan Tui, I do Tan Tui. When they stand in horse, I stand in horse....except for a few moments of correction.

I answer at times that are lulls. For example, when developing software, you have to design first....so I consider the design...then I browse a bit while it solidifies, then I write it down. It is NOT at all uncommon for my computer to have a minimum of 5 or 6 windows open in which I am doing REAL work. I manage a team of 10 developers and am responsible for the design, testing, implementation, and support for all of the software for a small (350 people) company.

You can't do that unless you think fast, type fast, manage your time, and KNOW what you are doing.

I have degrees in Engineering, Psychology, and a minor in English... I would pursue the MS and PHD in engineering but it would require me to give up training. I also teach Taijiquan at my office to around 15 people twice a week at lunch - then I pick up my sandwich and eat while I work at my PC or in meetings with my staff. That is an hour of basics and leg work for me...and an hour of learning for those in the class.


"Where do you find the time to teach, let alone part your deep wisdom onto your students?"

This is a tactless thing to say. How long have you been involved in CMA and such? I have been doing this stuff since 1974.

"With 41 posts a month, "hell that's alot time spent at a desk"

And how much time did you spend researching me to make such a point over a difference of opinion? 41 per month...hmmm...that is about 1.3 posts a day. I write more documentation than that for software in a morning. I only read those posts that interest me. A T-1 line helps too.


"You must have a day job at a computer, "Yes, it must be how you do it."


Yes it is.... It pays the bills nicely. I use the web to clear my mind while solving tech problems. If I were to do Qi Gong, it would be misconstrued as something else - like sleeping - my predecessor was narcoleptic and slept at his PC.

"Somehow I got the feeling your going to tell me you pratice and teach Yang style taijiquan."

Zha Quan, Wing Chun, Northern shaolin Long Fist, 24, 32, 42, 48 Taijiquan, Yang style, Sun Style, other Taiji weapons. Long weapons - The Ma Dao is my favorite...two handed straight sword, etc... and lots of basics. I DO NOT do wimpy Taijiquan...if you don't have leg strength and good body alignment in my class or my teacher's you do not last long.


"Not that I think there's anything wrong with that."

BUT YOU OBVIOUSLY DO. If you can't argue the point of a post without attacking the person posting, then you have nothing to say anyway. As I said, I do not waste my time in class...other places...maybe...but not in class.

"I need to learn better time management, then I could post more often like you."

A bit of self respect and respect for others wouldn't hurt either. Your original idea of crossing hands with a teacher was BAD advice if the teacher is a traditional Chinese teacher. That is what I said was BS.

"Got any advise on managing time?

I'm having trouble working and teaching and training myself, oh yea, I left out occasional tournaments I and my students do on the week-ends. "

Try working, teaching, training, JUDGING at competitions, and being active in trying to make the CMA community grow. Try my schedule and then add in things like showing up to be a head judge at a national level tournamnt an hour before the competitors and leaving 2 hours after the event is over. If you have competed using USAWKF rules, you have seen some of the things I have helped write over the years. Doing with around 5.5 hours of sleep a night helps too.

Excuse me if I stepped on your toes but You have NOT exactly displayed an open mind. I don't know where you live but where I am, some of the things you advised can get you shot, sued, or both.

I have known many traditional Chinese masters both in the US and met many in China. NONE of them would accept a student who came in the way you suggested. If the student were in the class for a while, as someone else suggested, that is a different story.

Time management...first lesson is if you have doubts, go with them and walk. It saves time and you are right 80% of the time. An 80-20 solution in engineering is quite good.

To go furhter on this is a waste of my time... Saijin

[Sum Guye]

I don't think 'Don't-c-m-Spanky' meant:
"challange a teacher" WHILE their teaching a class. That would be arrogant and rude.

And if you're not willing to do a little friendly sparring with someone- you've got no business teaching a MARTIAL ART. (and if you can't handle yourself when a jerk comes in to do some non-friendly sparring... you're in the wrong line of work, chum.


Observe a class.
Take note of how students respond to a teacher.
Take note of how/what the teacher teaches.
Does he/she have something you'd like to learn.
(if an IMA class has mats and teaches applications for the form's movements- that's a good sign.)

It's all a progression.. you may find one teacher you are certain is great... you learn alot, then you stumble across another teacher and realize the frist teacher was just mediocre etc. etc. etc. The most important thing is that you build on your own knowledge/skill in the process.

it's that simple.
Good teachers are patient, through, affordable and kind.

Peace, Love and AppleJacks.
Sum Guye