How can i tell between good/bad instructor?

[les paul]

That is exactly what I meant and he knows it!


GLW, What do you mean by me not being open minded?

Are you not the one who put my words in quotes and then commented on them?



Here in metro Detroit, most schools have open nights. Let me give you a few off the top of my head (these are mostly the ones I have visited in some way or another)

Kronk's Boxing:

(Many champions found here)

Tripp Academy;

(Best jujitsu and Judo in the Midwest, Dan "the Beast" Sevrens trained out of here for his return trip to the UFC, which he won)

Detroit San Shou:

This gym houses some of the best San Shou and Muai tai fighters in the mid-west. Plenty of champions here also.....

Any Issinryu Karate in the metro Detroit area

"Hell they will drag you off the street because they love to spar so much...

Any Koi-kan Karate Dojo:

Sensei Frost and Co: Bogo amour or no Bogo amour......"nuff said here"

Berkley Kook Soul Won (Korean jujitsu): home of some very fine fighters like Mike Fox and Co..

Woodward Shaolin Kung Fu:
Nice!.......

Sterling Hts Aiki-jujitsu: I can sum up them in two words..."be prepared!!!!!"

My list could go on and on and on,

All have open nights..........

Any of these places you could go in and in a respectful friendly manner ask to spar after class or come back on their open night. This is done for a couple of reasons.

Just as you said Sum Guye "it's part of the business and comes with the territory"

No, I wasn't talking about going in a starting a fight. GLW you couldn't have thought I was saying that. If you did, you should have asked to me explain my statement further, instead of shooting off like I'm some kind of troll.


To see if a school is legit, you go down and get on the deck and mix it up with some of the students or the instructors on open night etc

Common knowledge...after all it is martial arts were talking about isn't it?

GLW if you have been around as long as your bio say's you knows this.

Why are you so tick off at this notion?


I teach my Xingyiquan with the same intensity of most external schools listed above: I can't say that I'm a better teacher than those listed above because there are some great teachers at these schools!!! Nor do I dare put myself in the same league with some of them either.

But...

I can say that the local Yang or Wu style Taijiquan schools are not of the same caliber of the schools listed above, nor do they have an open night. And they suffer greatly from their lack of compitition

It's like they are oblivious to what is actually out there! (And most of their students are of like mind i.e. blind following the blind)

My Xingyiquan instructor would walk away from them saying whatever...... whatever....... "Have a nice day........ As did I, after experiencing what they had to offer.

That isn't saying they are bad (as I said in my original post) But if you want to know if a school is legit (in a martial sense, not in a health sense) and you can't tell, then I recommend you cross hands with someone before spending money or worst yet valuable time on that school! Money people usually have or can get...it's time that is truly valuable...


Yes, some others have stated it is better to stick around for a while before you make up you mind about an instructor. These opinions have real merit.



Since the original post was about an internal art, and I feel differntly about how to tell if an instructor is legit, I figured my first post was saving that guy some valuable time!!!!!!

And GLW!

No! My first post wasn't BS and no I didn't give bad advice.

But, I might have given advice that is bad for a few teachers out there that I know...

We are just going to have to agree that we disagree and move on. (at least I am)

[EARTH DRAGON]

hang on a second you posted this?
And if you're not willing to do a little friendly sparring with someone- you've got no business teaching a MARTIAL ART. (and if you can't handle yourself when a jerk comes in to do some non-friendly sparring... you're in the wrong line of work, chum.
I have been a sifu of ba bu tang lang and shyun tai chi chuan for over 7 years now and never has someone walked in to my kwon and disspresected me by asking me to spar them to see if I was a good teacher! that is a horrible thing you said that if teachers dont do this they have no business teaching martial arts! I would think that a teacher that stoops to the level of sparring a person off the street has no business teaching! what kind of sifu would accept an obvious no win situation simply to impress a young eagar not yet student! I find that teachers like that are just showing off to inflate their own egos and nothing more! and again martial arts is about discipline and respect, what kind of role model teaches those theories but does not live by them?

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[les paul]

Earth Dragon

I can't believe you think Yang Lu-chan sucked!

He welcomed anyone into his Kwoon that wanted a match!

I can't believe you think Chen Fa-ke sucks.
Heck, by all accounts he went looking for matches at other Kwoons

Wang Shu Jin: he would accept a challenge just about anytime....in class out out of class, it didn't matter..

I guess you think he sucked also!

How about Chen man-ching? Didn't Robert Smith write about Master Chen accepting a sparring match from a Karateka? on a moments notice.

I guess he was a man of low integrity also.....


I could go on and on.....with examples like this

Here is a modern example:

We wouldn't know about Gracie BJJ if they didn't accept people comming into the dojo and asking to sample the goods ("granted... I think they took this to the extreme....but Gracie BJJ!!! nuff said)


If anything, the Chinese masters I listed above had that same mentality that the Gracie's have.

This is the mentality I was talking about, this is the mentality of a good teacher.

Chances are if an instructor or one of his senior students will spar with you (being new to a school) they got something you want and they have nothing to hide.


Most of the time you know right when you walk through the door if an instructor is legit. Most of the time you can tell by his/hers students (because they are a direct reflection of the instructor) However, we are talking about internal arts and sometimes it hard to tell who knows what.

Lots and lots of fakes and frauds abound in the internal arts.


It seems to me that this fighting mentality is the same mentality towards martial arts you and GLW put down as low integrity teaching or "BS"


I personnaly (as with a few other instructors) don't have a problem answering a question in a physical nature to people new to my methods.

There is nothing wrong with this, nor is it somehow ego inflation either...

If anything it's enlightenment!

As with GLW we also are going to have to agree to disagree on this matter...

[EARTH DRAGON]

first: never did I ever say that anyone sucks! so lets get that clear!
second: the master and people that you posted are not living in todays soceity! if you want to get technical in the olden days one could not open a kwon with out fighting every scool owner in the surronding area first! they would burn a candle in the window to tell of a match the next day of a new sifu/new school and a old sifu/established school. If his fighting was worthy he was allowed to open!
this is modern day and with law suits and insurance claims, (that one has when they are a school owner) it is hard legally to strike a person off the street that has not signed a silly waiver, how ever without the obvious leagal problems you have more to lose than just money! to be a school owner you are asking for trouble to hit some person that walks in to your place of business just to show them how tough you are!
your point of view is not from a point of owning a business so please be a little more liberal in you comments! also If someone feels that they need to prove something by challenging me then my school is not the place to show them my abilities, but out back in the alley I would lock, break, rip, pull and tear.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Sum Guye]

Earth Dragon, you type very well for having such an extreme mental disability. You quoted what I said verbatim- but then ranted on about something I never said... it's kinda funny. (D-C-M-Spanky
seems to suffer a similar affliction... reads one
thing, takes it to a ridiculous extreme).

What I said was... "if you're not WILLING to do a little friendly sparring you've got no business
teaching a MARTIAL ART." (I'm not suggesting every teacher should FIGHT every student, nor that
every student should FIGHT every teacher at all.
'Willing' and 'Martial' are the opperative terms
in my sentence).

When I first got into Martial arts... I wouldn't
have asked anyone to spar. But now, I would not bother to study with someone who couldn't surpass me in skill. (by 'friendly sparring' I didn't imply doing serious damage to anyone nor threatening anyone). Someone with MARTIAL skill understands that.... too bad for your students you do not. (in 7 years you've never felt good enough to do a little sparring with someone you
don't know... wow... are you sure you're doing 'martial arts'?)

If someone states they teach 'Tai Ji forms and Chi Kung' then you know what to expect... forms and breathing skill lessons. But if someone states they teach Internal Martial Arts... then they are calling themselves martial artists and should be WILLING and able to spar IF asked.

If I went to your school (or Kwon, I'm American so I use English terminology like 'school' and 'teacher' rather than Chinese or Japanese terms)... and I watched you teach a class, and thought 'hmmmm this guy seems pretty good'. I would speak with you after the class and ask if you'd mind if we could do a little push hands for a few minutes to see if you can throw me.

If you said "no I don't spar" I wouldn't mind.
I but wouldn't return to learn from you.

If you said "okay" and couldn't pull off a clean throw. I wouldn't mind... I wouldn't return to learn from you.

I don't understand how you can see that as disrespectful. I wouldn't embarrass you in front of your students.. you would do that yourself.

Peace, love and good grub
Sum Guye

[EARTH DRAGON]

may I ask wherein my post I said this?

Someone with MARTIAL skill understands that.... too bad for your students you do not. (in 7 years you've never felt good enough to do a little sparring with someone you
don't know... wow... are you sure you're doing 'martial arts'?)

I never said that! now you are taking what I said out of text! who has an extreme mental disability?
and yes I'm sure that I am doing martial arts I trained under a chinese grandmaster going on 19 years now how about you? are you sure you understand my point of view. I would not mind having hands with anyone of my students but to any tom dick or harry that walks into my place of business and asks me to touch hands with them obviously needs something more than class times and costs! after they become my student and are now someone I put my time into then they can ask what ever they want for now they mean something to me!
one time I made the mistake of showing my freinds an iron palm break, since then every time someone new comes around they ask me to show their freind how I can break a brick with a slap. I then always answer come to my school and I will show you , this never happens and I like that , why should I show off to someone who is looking to be impressed!!!!! do you understand my point yet?

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[neptunesfall]

since you asked about a good instructor - not a good fighter.....watch a class and see how they treat their students. does the instructor yell or treat them unfairly? does he seem to favor one or two students above the rest? does he correct on a student by student basis? also....when the teacher is demonstrating a form or drill, etc. watch to see if they correct their feet and footwork. a sifu who has to look down and see his feet to correct them and/or constantly has to correct them is not someone who has mastered what they have been taught

[Sum Guye]

My but you have a hard time understanding things.

I suggest you re-read the entire thread
(after a good cup of tea!) and discover
why you're being thick headed.

If you still don't understand, let me know- I'll
return from a trip next week and will gladly lay it all out for you again, in simpler terminology.

[EARTH DRAGON]

I understand quite well, but arguing my opinon is a bit ridiculous, I run my school very well and have many happy students, So I guess what I'm doing works well. And that is the way I feel , but your probably going to tell me how I feel is wrong so enjoy your vacation and have fun!
P.S push hands known as TUI SAO never has throwing techniques! the goal is to offset your opponents balance or in competition form push them out of a circle shaped ring. So never could you get off a clean throw as you stated! just wanted to clear that up. thanks feel free to visit my web site and check out me and master Lin Muo Hao cheif trainer and national coach of the Chinese national tui sao (push hands)team of taiwan R.O.C

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Kevin Wallbridge]

So if its bad form to cross-hands with someone off of the street, what about the person that comes to you with genuine concerns about your skill level? How can you enlightened fellows spend so much effort trying to make gross generalizations about broad issues?

One of the problems with the internals is that you must touch to really guage a person's level. The beginner with absolutely no structure, unsure of the ends of his own limbs, may be the exception, yet I've seen people who look full, but are empty and vice versa.

"Can I feel it?" is not too confrontational and a legitimate request. At the same time an instructor who is reluctant is not necessarily a sham either, perhaps there are good reasons to be cautious. Maybe we need to consider whether or not we are talking about any extenuating circumstances.

All unusual variables aside, my bias is towards the instructors who will touch you. My usual response to "can you really use this stuff?" is the reply "sure, do anything..." Thats been enough for most people. So far, no-one who has come for instruction has either been an idiot or my superior. That isn't to say I haven't met the odd upper-body meathead who just wanted to play so-you-think-you-are-tough. The difference between these types of people has, to this point, been clear and unambiguous. Where is the problem?

I 'll go do some deep breathing now, someone has to. ;)

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[bamboo_ leaf]

"can you really use this stuff?"

i smiled as i read this. it was exactly the question I asked one of the students of my first TC teacher’s class.
I was promptly bounced off a wall with a press movement.

My first teacher was a man called Sam Kakina in Hawaii, many called what he was teaching outlaw TC. As he taught the combative aspects of the art. He was always happy to show his art.

Most teachers including myself that I’ve met are very happy to show and demonstrate the usage part of TC. In doing this I am always sure to illustrate a qualitative difference between what TC is and what it is not.

I would look at the quality of movement and understanding of the teacher’s student’s maybe more so then the teacher. Some people may be able to do but can’t pass it on. Others may not quite have it but can develop it in others.

So the most famous teacher may not always be the best, a lot depends on your level and natural ability. If you find some one you can call teacher, and he / she fits what you want and expect this is very good. I only hope that you can be the student that any teacher would be happy to have. luck in your journey.

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

[Sum Guye]

Earth Dragon,

At least we agree that arguing your opinon is a bit ridiculous!

[EARTH DRAGON]

you are right my opinon is wrong you are better and smarter than me! you win are you happy now?

dear kevin, You said how can I distinguish between some one with genuine concerns about my skill level? I would think that if they are genuinely interested in learning from me the last thing that would do would be to challenge me! I have always been taught respect in my years of training but obviously not everyone has, but any way would you question your proffesor before you take a class to see if he is smart enough to teach you? maybe its a little different but still you get my point. I have many black belts of other styles that walk into my school based on my reputation and word of mouth so I dont think it is neccesary to walk in off the street and say show me! however as "sum guyes" dont understand that is not the case after they have joined my school and begin to learn from me, then if they question my skill level I show them! but the argument was that a good/bad instuctor will have hands with anyone that walks into his or hers school! I again do not beleive that to be true for that is not a test of a good instrutor but rather a pompus one! but as I said before that is my opinon but as "sume dumb guye" said my opinon is wrong! http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Sum Guye]

Dirt Dragon,

I was happy long before you announced that you believe I am smarter and better than you. My happiness has nothing to do with you...but thanks anyway!

I never stated your opinion was wrong- only that you were giving opinions on something that was never stated. (it was Stubbs, the person who started this thread, who originally said
he 'sparred with external teachers' to see if they were good. Then DCMSpanky agreed, then you and GLW went wild, arguing like fired up b*tches about things that neither Stubbs or DCMSpanky had posted.)

Assuming some of your students can read and have access to this website -you sure haven't shown any sense of respect,honor, patience, discipline nor even the ability to comprehend what you read.
That may make them wonder how that plays into other aspects of your knowledge and teachings.

Frankly, I abhor bickering... and usually refrain from getting into squabbles with hens. I'm not sure why I thought this would be useful but I'm glad to see it's over. (I'm pretty sure Stubbs has gotten the answer he was looking for)

For the record, I do think your opinion is wrong. And I believe you are a Commartial Artist rather than a Martial Artist. (that was a play on words... Commercial blended with Martial... it's really rather witty) It sounds like you have no interest in anyone until they've paid you to be interested. That works for some folks, but for me, that's the type of teacher I avoid.

(And yes, if I was going to seriously study under a professor in some speciality field, I would ask him a few questions to confirm my hopes he was able to deal with them. If he said "Not until you've paid me for the class" I would not be interested... but again, that's just me.)

I'm looking forward to reading future posts from you and your wacky little ultra interpretive mind.

Peace, Love and Frankenberries
Sum Guye

[EARTH DRAGON]

well again you are looking at things from a students point of view and I am looking at things from a teacher/business point of view. It kind of hard not see my side being as how you are not a school owner, but I assure you that I am far from a commercial school,actually just the opposite, but I do have the interest to make money to pay bills and support my family, So I dont bother to try to impress any one that walks in off the street looking for a fight. My tuition costs are month by month any way but as far a business owner if I take time away from my paying students to impress some guy off the street then I can not give my students the attention they deserve that how things are!
again I shouldnt have to explian my self to you but I feel like I must, and please dont tell some one their opinon is wrong! you do not have the right to say that!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net