How can i tell between good/bad instructor?

[EARTH DRAGON]

if you think I am picking on you I am not so please dont get mad, and I did not intend for this thread to be filled up with nonsense so back to the topic

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[gazza99]

As a teacher I agree with Earth dragon on this one, it is disrespectfull for a potential student to challenge a sifu. A better solution is to let them spar with one of the students if the students wants to. This will help gauge the styles effectivness a bit, but also the teaching ability of the sifu, which is the central issue anyhow. The teacher could be the next bruce lee, but if he cant teach worth anything then why learn from him?
I also believe that giving a free lesson or two could take the place of such a sparring match or challenge. After a good demo, or class it should be obvious to you if the school is worth your time. This way even if you dont like the style or the sifu you didnt walk away short any $$ or blood!
Gary

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com

[Sum Guye]

Read through the thread and you'll
see that Dirt Dragon and GLW were the only folks brash enough to tell others their opinions (which the two had misunderstood to begin with) were 'wrong', 'horrible' and 'disrespectful'.

You'll also notice, that only Dirt Dragon and GLW mention 'fight' and 'challenge' (even going to the ridiculous extreme of suggesting that someone might "challenge a teacher during class"). They jumped to the conclusion that a skilled martial artist asking a potential teacher to "DO A LITTLE FRIENDLY SPARRING" was some sort of a death duel challenge.. to be taken up in the back alley rather than the school. And, I believe it was Dirt Dragon who said someone who did such a thing just wanted to inflate their own ego... comical, to me.
It's useless trying to clarify what's going on when Dirt Dragoober keeps reverting back to arguing stuff that only exists in his vacuous head.

But again I will state:
I believe anyone who considers themselves a Martial Arts Teacher should be WILLING to do a little FRIENDLY sparring with an interested, willing person if asked respectfully (not during a class, dimwit) AND I believe anyone who makes their living TEACHING A MARTIAL ART should be able to handle themselves in the absurd chance some creep comes in and tries to initiate non-friendly sparring.

(call me crazy, but I think a 'mechanic' should be able to fix an engine; a writer should be able to write paragraph; a doctor should be able to diagnose; a musician should be able to play music... and if someone is considering spending time and money to learn that skill from any of them asking for a small sample is in no way disrespectful.)

Having a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent has gotten old. I'm tired of trying to explain the thread to Dirt Dragoob and I can't think of any other way to explain it so he can understand what was actually said.

Peace, Love and avoid money grubbing teachers,
Sum Guy

[EARTH DRAGON]

WELL SUM GUYE YOUR OPINON IS WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[les paul]

You wrote;
First: never did I ever say that anyone sucks! so lets get that clear!


No that's not right.... not right at all. You where referring to people who questioned other peoples skills as being somehow wrong and egotistical. Right?

And since the masters I cited did the very things you say are wrong and egotistical, we can only deduce from your comments that you did indeed thought they sucked!

Yea. I'm stretching on this and I know I sound ridiculous.....but this is how you sound to me when you think it's not right for someone to question someone’s skills (if that person is new to a school)


You wrote:
Second: the master and people that you posted are not living in today’s society!

What do you define as today's society????

Wang Shu Jin died in the early eighties and I think Chen Man-ching died slightly before him. As far as I know the Gracies are alive and kick’ in


You wrote:
if you want to get technical in the olden days one could not open a kwon with out fighting every school owner in the surrounding area first! they would burn a candle in the window to tell of a match the next day of a new sifu/new school and a old sifu/established school. If his fighting was worthy he was allowed to open!

True.... true.... but According to my Sifu they also just showed up at your door and demanded a match if they thought you weren't legit.

You wrote:
this is modern day and with law suits and insurance claims, (that one has when they are a school owner) it is hard legally to strike a person off the street that has not signed a silly waiver, how ever without the obvious leagal problems you have more to lose than just money! to be a school owner you are asking for trouble to hit some person that walks in to your place of business just to show them how tough you are!
your point of view is not from a point of owning a business so please be a little more liberal in you comments!

Wait......hold up..... Didn't you respond to my post first? Hmmmmmm..... seems you have a case of sellected memory also.....


You wrote:

also If someone feels that they need to prove something by challenging me then my school is not the place to show them my abilities, but out back in the alley I would lock, break, rip, pull and tear.

Again and again and again and again......I wasn't talking about the "old school, hey you suck! I'm going to kick your ass mantality"
Was I?


No I wasn't!

Seems you and GLW are parinoid that someone is going to come into your school and show you up.

Which will never happen if you have developed proper relationships with your students.


I understand what you are saying about running a school. Yes! In a business sense you have to watch how you proceed, but again I wasn't talking about starting a fight with someone off the street, and if you have to defend yourself in your school I don't think that there is a court of law that will find you gultiy for defending yourself at your place of buisness


By not taking the time to investigate or understand where somebody is coming from... You (yes You!!!!!! show how narrow minded you are_

heck.... your orginal response shows this.....


Let's really take a look at your argument.

You wouldn't spar with someone new who just came into your kwoon asking questions. Right?

Right! Ok now

What if he/she had a lot to offer you (as a new student, he/she was highly motivated, but needed a little proof) you would have just lost him/her to another school.


You might ask "well how am I to know if that student is motivated or not?"

That's just it, you don't!

What if that person was highly skilled and was capable of showing you things you haven't seen before?

You just lost out again! "big time"

All because of what?


I get hit by my students all the time.... they know I'm no superman.

To me martial arts are about honesty and realism, two things a true martial artist can not do without.

Also, Sum Guye Yea.... I was streching responses to my post. I was trying to take their arguments to the point of breaking. I think it was a failed attempt.


They just don't get it, and never will.

Your last post is exactly what I would have written.

Thank you for writing it. Sum guye

[Braden]

I've gotta say I'm with Sum Guye and Spanky on this one.

One of the problems here is that their opponents (read: EARTH DRAGON) are wildly exagerating what they said. They never suggested a stranger walk in off the street in the middle of the class and immediately start trying to beat the crap out of the instructor. Everyone here agrees that is completely inappropriate. All they are saying is that, as a provider of a commercial service, the onus is on you to demonstrate some level of competence in that service. For internal martial arts, this will typically require some level of contact.

Contrary to what was asserted here, this is exactly how things work in every aspect of our society. The only real difference is that many other 'commericial services' are standardized, and we put some faith into that process that alleviates some of our need to personally test the individuals we meet. In martial arts, there is no such standardization, making it all the more important to test a potential instructor!

In fact, this kind of testing is so pervasive in our society, that it occurs even outside of commercial interaction. For example, if you are a pre-graduate student seeking your supervisor for PhD or MSc works, you are likely to spend a long time 'testing' your potential supervisors. In science, the 'unit of proficiency' is the journal article. Serious pre-grad students spend a long time reading up on the journal articles to determine the skill level of their potential advisors. How many are there? In what publications? Are they included in major review papers? What is the quality in each article? This is a very good analogy to martial arts instruction, as (in the west) you work like an apprentice to your supervisor, leaning him by copying him (more or less); the teaching process is very similar to internal martial arts. However, there's one difference: the supervisor is paying YOU! Yet you still test him! Well, the 'unit of proficieny' in martial arts is being able to defend yourself. So it seems like some sort of test of this IS appropriate in our society.

What this entails depends very much on the situation. Obviously, it's very important for both parties to go about this in a polite, even friendly, and mutually conveniant manner. (ie. showing up in the middle of a class and demanding satisfaction won't cut it) Also, the skill level of the prospective student is very important. An intermediate level student should be able to get a good sense of the instructor's skill level through push hands or a similar exercise. An advanced student may, I think, legitimately ask for something more. There are people with 30+ years of martial arts experience still looking for new teachers (I hope to be one of them some day!). A beginner on the other hand, would probably have no idea how to judge internal martial arts proficiency. In past threads, I've suggested (and others have elsewhere) some simple tests that a beginner can conduct on a prospective teacher to at least determine of the teacher has some skill. I think that, not only would this be appropriate, but that it would impress most good teachers, as it would show you've done your homework and you're legitimately interested in what s/he's doing.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Im just about sick of trying to make my point with the one tract thoughts and the one sided veiw in a many point of view subject! all of you have told me that the way I conduct my business is wrong so why bother? In my 19 years of training have I never heard of such disreseptful allegations to challenge some ones skill level by walking into a school and think you have the right to say; before you teach me can you put up your hands to let me know if youre good enough! If some one said that to my master he would laugh, smile and say come back tomorrow to busy today! that would be his humble way of denying that person from learning anything!Im from the old school where you had to prove your worth to be taught! its not about $ its about character
Again this is the way I was taught and the way I feel and no one on this board can tell me that I am wrong! so again you dont have to agree but why tell some one that what the do is not right just becuse you dont agree! frankly I could care less if you thought I was good or not! But asking to play before you pay is never good business! and I say that from a business and school owners point of view! braden, sum guy, spanky do you have schools? If you dont than you cant understand where Im comming from so why bother?

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Earth Dragon is tired of talking to one track minds that can't see another side of the issue? You break me up man, do you read your own responses?

I make a point of not being harsh in this forum, but you display as closed a mind as any I've seen in this place. Hippocracy is bad Wu De, especially in a pedagogue. You have an opinion that you flog relentlessly and far more narrowly than the people you argue with. You seem to feel that any question of qualification is a challenge, an opinion you have elevated to the level of doctrine, leaving no room for inquiry. I said "genuine concerns" and you extract "challenge," odd. I for one just can't see the world as so monochromatic. There is some middle ground between blind trust and throwing down the gauntlet. Does it cost so much face to acknowledge that compromise is even possible? It doesn't mean that you have to give up your opinion, just make room for another one. I tried to make some space for you in that light in my first post.

As for you question about professors, I did, in fact, interview professors during my university education. I'm not spending that kind of money and just trusting them to all be equally qualified. I chose teachers who had good lineages (philosophy from a student of Bertrand Russel, and anthropology from the son of Oliver Keesing, founder of the anthro department at Stanford university and collegue of Margaret Mead and Louis Kroeber). I was polite and respectful and took no bull**** from them. No-one seemed offended by my questions, yet any of them had the power to make my studies at that university very uncomfortable. Life is to short to waste on mediocraty.

Cheers Bamboo Leaf, glad it brought a smile.
Well said Braden.
Sum Guye, I sure hope I don't draw your satire any time soon. Peace.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[Sum Guye]

Thanks for seeing through all the B.S. and reading what was happening in this thread.

[This message was edited by Sum Guye on 09-19-01 at 12:34 PM.]

[Sum Guye]

in your last post you stated:
"all of you have told me that the way I conduct my business is wrong so why bother? "

Where did anyone post anything in anyway close to that? I can't find it.

In answer to your previous post;
"...please don't think I'm picking on you, don't get mad" all I can say is, even if you weren't so comical in your delusions of adequacy I wouldn't get mad. Heck, you couldn't pick on me if your life depended on it.

I travel to your area from time to time, one of these days I'll observe a class and if you seem to have any skill at all (which, at this point, I find hard to imagine) I will ask you to push hands after you've finished with your class.

I'm looking forward to it.

[blacktaoist]

Im with don't call me spanky and sum guye on this subject. I see nothing wrong with testing an martial art instructor after they teach they class. To my knowledge, this is the best why to find out if the instructor have any real martial art skill. I live and teach BAGUAZHANG in New York City Harlem.(up town)I have people from all kinds of styles come see me, some are good fighters, some are not! Im not a BAGUAZHANG master, but i am a fighter that teach BAGUA combat. So when people come to me, they come to learn and train combat Bagua, not new age bull****!!
Most of the time i push hands and even spar with these people, some are very good friends of mines now. My opinon is you know if a person is out to hurt you or make you lose face.
You should be able to feel they intent. Expand your field of awareness(subconscious awareness)These are senses that all real internal boxers have, senses which allow you to perceive a person intent.(metaphysical)
My BAGUA TEACHER always told me,search out a skilled man with natural ability, a good teacher fighting ability is not shown in forms and many arrange techniques like people teach today. If a martial art teacher just show you forms and techniques and can't apply it free style, then my friends he is a fraud.(bad teacher)Correct instruction makes for practicing true martial arts. Real martial art teachers don't mind to compare or show they maritial skills with other people or experts. Bottom line try to avoid frauds,god knows there are a lot of them out there.
Earth Dragon, in one of your post, you said there is no throwing in push hands. No disrespect to you,but there is throwing and even sweeping in Tui shou(push hands)There are many different levels of training in Tui shou, not just off balance your opponeent. The purpose of Tui Shou is to cultivate the sticking and listening energy needed in self defence. What a person is trying to do is conden electromagnetic energy into they body's electrocellular membranes in order to make they body a living magnet. Tui shou is some deep ****!(LOL)Any way when i learn push hands from william c.c. chen, he teach controlling and locking , throwing and sweeping, even single and double arm striking. Any way don't mean to get off the subject, but one thing i can say i saw with my own eyes, and know of good fighters from other styles that have came to William C.C. Chen to test his skill and he beat them all. Bottom line real teachers with skill don't mind if a person come to test or compare martial skills.
They have nothing to hide.

When you see righteousess it should make you brave. You should be benevolent, but not be humble.-BAGUAZHANG Master SUN XIKUN
Always keep the tao real-BLACKTAOIST

[EARTH DRAGON]

In regards to your post saying "Earth Dragon, in one of your post, you said there is no throwing in push hands. No disrespect to you,but there is throwing and even sweeping in Tui shou(push hands)There are many different levels of training in Tui shou, not just off balance your opponeent. The purpose of Tui Shou is to cultivate the sticking and listening energy needed in self defence. What a person is trying to do is conden electromagnetic energy into they body's electrocellular membranes in order to make they body a living magnet. Tui shou is some deep ****!(LOL)Any way when i learn push hands from william c.c. chen, he teach controlling and locking , throwing and sweeping, even single and double arm striking"
Not meaning to start an argument, I have had to many this on this thread already, but anyways I would just like to point out that I have never heard of throwing or sweeping or locking in tui sao.
But to help me make my point Here are the offical rules of tui sao.

All push hands competitors must wear short-sleeved shirts. One match consists of two 60 second rounds with a 15 second break in between rounds. Opponents face each other and each places their foot on the center mark. When prepared to begin, they make contact with the back of the right or left wrist. The referee gives the command to begin at which time the competitors are required to perform a a minimum of 2 revolutions before initiating any techniques. Time is suspended while the referee calls for a point and verification and announces their decision and for consultation or emergency situations. Points are awarded to the competitor whose opponent has made an error or committed a personal violation or a serious personal violation. Points may be awarded for technical violations.

Attack areas: Attacks may be made within restricted areas of the body: from below the base of the neck to above the groin or bladder area. Pushing the neck, head, bladder area, hip joint, or leg is illegal.(which makes sweeping impossible)

Stepping: Competitors may take a step or steps forward or backward, with either the front or the back foot, but may not reverse the stance, i.e., the front foot must stay forward. Competitors must keep to the orientation of the center line; they may not step to the side to defend or gain an advantage in pushing.

Violations: Points are awarded to the opponent of the competitor who committed the violation. However the opponent will receive 2 points if one commits a serious personal violation. Disqualification may be enforced for one serious violation and must be disqualified for 2 serious violations. The referee in consultation with the judges may disqualify a competitor.

Errors: Loss of balance and endangering oneself.

Personal Violations
1. Using techniques excessive in strength
2. Grabbing the opponents clothes
3.Double grabbing (gripping with both hands)
4.Holding on to prevent loss of balance
5. Attacking an illegal target area
6.Reversing the stance to gain advantage
if you look at #3 you will find that you can not grab with two hands therfore how could possibly throw a person with one hand?

Technical Violations
1.Not following instructions of the referee
2.Not completing the mandatory revolutions
3.Receiving coaching during the round
Serious Personal Violations
1.Striking, hitting, punching
2.Using the head to attack
3.Using the legs, knees, or feet to attack
4.Twisting the joints (grappling or chin na)
5.Using pressure points
6.Pulling hair or beard
7.Attacking the groin area
8.Using any technique determined to cause injury
9.Unsportsman-like conduct

Points are awarded to the opponent of the competitor who committed the violation. However, the opponent will receive 2 points if one commits a serious personal violation as listed above.

Disqualifications: Competitors may be disqualified for one serious violation and must be disqualified for 2 serious violations. A competitor may also be disqualified by the referee in consultation with the judges.


Moving Push Hands

The competition area will consist of 2 circles. The inner circle will be 15 feet in diameter while the outer circle will be 21 feet in diameter. Marks in the center of the circles will indicate the starting point, which will be the same as for the restricted step push hands.

After 3 revolutions with the hands, each competitor may begin moving and proceed until told to stop by the referee. There will be one round of 90 seconds PUSHING TIME. The clock will stop when the referee stops to obtain scoring from the judges.

Score will be awarded based upon infractions or mistakes from an opponent. Points will be awarded for the same infractions as with the restricted step push hands expect, of course, competitors are now allowed to move at will.

1 point: Awarded when one's opponent loses balance, uses excessive force, forcefully holds on, double grabbing and all other infractions listed in the restricted step push hands. The referees and judges shall especially watch out for holding. In addition, points are also awarded when one's opponent steps or is forced out of the circles.

2 points: Awarded when the opponent steps ON or outside the inner circle.

3 points: Awarded when ANY part of the body touches or falls outside these circles.
The same scoring procedure as for the restricted step push hands shall be used. As with restricted step regulations, the referee shall stop the match upon seeing struggling by both competitors and no points are awarded.
so agin with reading what I have posted It would be illegal to sweep or lock and impossible to throw! unless you can throw someone with one hand and without grabbing!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[HuangKaiVun]

Don't study with any instructor who would disrespect another professional martial artist the way people here are - no matter how good he THINKS his skill is.

We all have different methods, which results in different techniques. It takes a lot of skill and training to truly appreciate that.

It is the hallmark of a NOVICE INSTRUCTOR who would call another professional martial artist "mentally deranged".

[Braden]

Earth Dragon - I think he was referring to push hands as a training tool, rather than push hands as a competition format. The former is for learning about fighting, the latter is for... I guess entertainment. At advanced levels, all manner of techniques can become incorporated into it's practice. As a side note, there are plenty of throws that don't require grabbing, let alone two-handed grabbing, eg. aikido's iriminage.

[Shooter]

This just keeps getting better...or worse...

Earth Dragon, your last post hints at the reason why Tai Chi Chuan is losing its fighting heritage. All these ideas as to what is "official," "orthodox," "auhtentic," Tai Chi. Ridiculous...More pedantics and politics...arrrgh

Tai Chi is learned by beginners as a grappling system. Albeit, a very 'soft' grappling system. Just because the official rules that you recognize are written as such, doesn't mean that's the extent of how one should train. I've been saying for years that push-hands isn't much different than the stand-up phase of Greco/Roman and freestyle wrestling. At least that's how I was taught and how I train. Our jacketed push-hands isn't much different than Judo/BJJ. We learn to fajing in real-time against resisting partners during our push-hands, and sometimes, we even go to the ground *GASP* Our Tai Chi san-shuo (free-sparring) is identical to Vale Tudo.

When I have visitors come in "off the street" to check it out, myself and my students don't miss a beat. We just train the way we always train and when it comes time to spar and push, our guest gets to see what Tai Chi TRAINING is like (they don't get the REAL, and I don't show it off). The sparring is more than most people can handle. We have an inside joke among our regular members...non-MAs visitors who want to see what these wimpy Tai Chi guys are doing last about an hour and almost always ask what time it is about 10 minutes before they leave. We usually never see them again. :)

I have BJJers Judo players, kickboxers, wrestlers, NHBers, etc. visit my school all the time. Many of them attend our regular Sunday open-door training sessions. We're the only NHB training facility for 300 miles in any direction. I'm not trying to sound like a badass...I don't even like the sport, but I'm glad its there and my school has hosted 3 tourneys in the past. It's a necessary extension of the training though and if my students want to compete, they're entirely in their element when they do because they train like that constantly.

I tell my students that they can play games all they want. If they want to stop playing games and learn Tai Chi Chuan for what it is, they have to internalize the training through learning and practicing form, and acquiring good Chi Kung skills. They have to soften their push-hands and refine their sensitivity. They have to keep their shoes on and wear their street clothes when they spar and train. They have wrap their mind and awareness around what it is they're doing and why they're doing it. They have to train outside on concrete, gravel, grass, ice, in the rain, snow, blah blah blah.

If I see someone directing people to their website to view the photos of them putting a steel wire through their leg as a demo of their advanced Chi Kung, I would think they'd be very receptive to demonstrating their lesser skills of fighting and their understanding of the combative elements of their art. If anything, I'd say that behavior echos your own comments about being a show-off.

As for "people off the street,"... They're always easy to get along with. Sometimes a little exuberant, but never a problem as far as attitude goes. I think a lot of it has to do with the way people are treated. If you meet their request with a defensive demeanor or as a superior, you create barriers. It's only human nature to test the resolve and extent of those barriers. If you greet them receptively and accomodate their choices as to what it is they'd like to explore, an environment of mutual effort makes for a fun and productive training session.


As always with Tai Chi, no easy answers. Any system that affords its practitioners such latitude and freedom is bound to contrast greatly from one player's ideas to the ideas of another. There is no right way and no wrong way. Just the way that works for you. One need only look at the JKD guys and how they're unable to define the idea that they base their own training on. It has definition, but it eludes the ability of any one person to fully define it.

Tai Chi's founding masters weren't without this conundrum when they wrote their respective treatises and songs, and we're blessed through their efforts to do so. Every word is essential.

Peace