How can i tell between good/bad instructor?

[Sum Guye]

*on the third or fourth rotation
*I can throw you with one hand,
*while only stepping forward or backward.
*(I'm not sure of the size of the ring,
(I only need to step as far as you'll back up).

Those rules don't say anything against throwing, you'd eat some EARTH DRAGON.

If you only study competition rules push hands, you'll never be able to handle and active opponent who just keeps coming back from your pushes.
AND IF THAT'S ALL YOU'VE FIGURED OUT IN 19 YEARS, I CAN'T WAIT TO PUSH HANDS (competition rules are fine by me) WHEN I PUSH HANDS WITH YOU

[EARTH DRAGON]

if you read the rules you can plainly see that it would be almost impossible to throw unless of coarse you can throw without grabbing or lifing your feet without a sweep! but then again we are talking about sum guye! maybe its different for you! you say you live in LA but you travel to bffalo a lot, would you consider stopping by my school so I can show you "in a freindly way" what I have learned in 19 years!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Sum Guye]

again you misunderstand what you read (you're amazing!)

I can throw you without grabbing your legs or sweeping your feet.

I do live in L.A.... I travel to your area "from time to time"..... if it were "alot" I would've said "alot" or "often" or "frequently"

your offer to visit comes after my offer to drop by sometime... and yes, again, I look forward to seeingin a "friendly" way what you've learned in 19 years.

read a little slower... maybe that will help.

[EARTH DRAGON]

could you please explain how you can throw someone without grabbing them. our system has the art of shui chiao (chinese wrestling) and in all the 40 throws there is not one that does not require you to grab or have a hold of your opponent, and if you read the post correctly it is not say grabbing the feet as you stated. So please explian the technique in which you would use.PS if you live in LA please feel free to stop by my masters school grand master Shyun Kwan Long, and ask him about me,he can give you a little history and maybe then you wont think Im such a bad guy! 25461 alicia pkwy suite B laguna hills LA

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Braden]

ED - Depends how you define throws. Alot of people think of throws as picking someone up and tossing them. However, martially, the definition of throws tends to include a wider variety of techniques. Technically, any technique where you steal the balance of your opponent, misalign his structure, then project him to the ground can be seen as a throw. There are a multitude of ways of doing this that don't require grabbing.

One example would be 'fierce tiger leaps from cave' from bagua. Imagine I am standing normally. Opponent facing me throws a "my left"/"his right" jab to my floating ribs area. I extend my right leg to the forward and right corner, while extending my right arm up to contact the underside of his arm with the top of mine, aligning my elbow to direct his force to my rear right corner. As I shift my weight forward onto my extended right leg and into a bow stance, my right forearm rotates up so that the upper arm stays where it is, my elbow is sunk, my fingers and hands point to the heavens, and my palm faces me (ie. shifting weight, rotating waist). My opponent will be twisted to the side, misaligning his shoulders and hips, and giving me his "my left"/"his right" outside door. I prefer to do this technique very close, at body-to-body distance. From here, I can execute a smooth shoulder stroke (or indeed, push) and send him tumbling to the ground.

Another example is the hip displacement (see 'effortless combat throws' by tim cartmell - which you should see anyway, since it's awesome). Which is very similar to iriminage from aikido which I mentioned earlier.

[Sum Guye]

you said 'Please' and you weren't the least bit snotty. (I never thought you were a bad guy,
just terrible at comprehension)

I could explain several throws that don't require grabbing- (the rules said "no two hand grabbing" clearly, grabbing with one hand is okay according to the rules you listed, with exception of grabbing to maintain ones own balance.)- but I'd rather show them to you when I make it out to your city...don't worry, my travel schedule is booked through the end of the year, but one of these days I'll pop in to say hello.

(If on the occasion of my visit, you request 'no grabbing' at all; since it's your school, I'll abide by your rules.... I know a couple of throws from Tai Ji that use no grabbing, which are more difficult to achive... but the fall they cause are equally more difficult to take.

As long as you are under 280lbs I can throw you (cause your body to meet the floor) without two handed grabbing...without sweeping...and without causeing you any harm (provided you know how to break-fall) and only stepping forward or backward. If you're over 280lbs you're likely to hurt yourself during your fall... and with someone of that size I may have to circle step which seems to be against those silly rules.

Thanks for finally showing some civility.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Before I add to this I have to say that I find the idea that Tuishou is competative is not high-level and is the second greatest drag on internal arts today. To elevate a drill intended to test structure and sensitivity and make it into a sport is to take these arts and lower then to the level of Tae-Kwon-Do and Sport Karate.

Throwing without grabbing is not too difficult. When you are connected many opportunities arise to take advantage of people's natural instinct to flinch. When a person is taken to the point that they cannot comfortably receive force they tend to lock-up their tissue and begin to struggle to save themselves. They become very vulnerable if the joints they hold onto are shoulders or hips. Simply turning your structure and spiralling the arms often sends these people flying, or you can simply load and release before you spiral. Their stiffnes provides the levers needed. You don't need to grab a simple level to move it, you only need to apply pressure on one side.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[EARTH DRAGON]

I agree to an extent but hear me out! in tai chi there are many applications that you simply lower your center of gravity move into your oppnents higher center of gravity and simply stand up or open your arms and shift your weight forward which causes your opponent to lose his balance and fall, using nothing but your legs or your trunk! however when playing pushing hands it is very very hard to exucte this or any technique since your opponent is keeping aware of his center and not giving you an opening. It is hard to stay relaxed and move quicker than your opponent and still not allowing him an opening in your defense. May be I have not pushed hands as many times as all of you but I find it hard to stay defensive while Im trying to be offensive, which makes throwing almost impoosible. granted as braden said their are many techniques that use a throw without grabbing we have plenty but trying to throw while pushing hands seems out of the question when both parties are so rooted.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[blacktaoist]

Earth dragon, the rules you post are push hands Tournament rules. My post reply to you was about real Tui shou training, not sport push hands. From 1995 to 1998 i used to participated in push hands Tournaments, fixed step and moving step push hands, I was push hand champion at the 2nd pan american wushu championship in Toronto, canada. the organizing chairman was sifu sunny tang.
I know the rules very well, most of the time people that follow them so called rules, end up wrestling trying to keep they root or trying to stop the other person from pushing them from out the circle. Sport push hands have nothing to do with real martial push hands. There are no rules on the streets!!!
Martial push hands have throwing and sweeping, controlling and locking, in BAGUAZHANG push hands (Kun Shou) many BAGUA students follow the Eight fighting abilities, if they are I-Ching lovers(lol)
The eight abilities are the characteristics and personalities of the I-Ching which can be used when push hands or fighting....they are:
throwing,sweeping,hooking,pushing,thrusting,pullin g,twisting and knocking.
Martial push hands training develop a combination of striking, locking and throwing to maximize the BAGUA and TAI CHI student fighting potential.
Like i said there is more to Tui Shou then a Tournament rule book. Most people that participated in push hands competition that i been to never get hurt,they are having fun wrestling LOL. PEACE BLACKTAOIST

[EARTH DRAGON]

My fault I thought we were talking about competition. I teach mantis so I dont know that much about fighting with other styles. I would love to be able to fight using my tai chi but dont feel confident enough to rely on it! I feel much more comfortable using mantis Ive been doing it for a long time. I was only aware of tui sao when My shr fu invited the national tawinese tai chi team from taipei to my city for a demonstration, it was tournamet style so That is what I was talking about, as far as push hands goes.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Guitarius]

I have had the privilege to be a student of more than a few martial arts instructors. Even a couple of really good ones! I've also been a teacher, and taught music lessons, etc so I feel like I can definitely add to this post.

A good teacher is one who teaches students to teach themselves. If said teacher can instill a sense of inspiration, and impart a thirst for knowledge, I think everything else will work itself out.

A good teacher isn't afraid to restate the obvious, and be truthful to his students, even if it's something they don't want to hear. A good teacher will be insistent upon helping his students build a solid foundation wherein they
can explore wherever their interests take them.

A bad teacher is someone who knows it all. Someone who isn't a student themselves, will likely not be such a great teacher. Of course, who am I to judge?

By the way Shooter, I've been having nightmares of you and me going at it in a Grande Prairie leisure center parking lot! Possibly fueled by the rumors of a couple of guys with swords in the parking lot the other week! hehehehehe

[GLW]

Guitarius,

is that Grand Prairie, Tx....?

[Sum Guye]

just for all the folks who've followed this thread, here's what Earth Dragon posted yesterday in response to someone who said "check out this site, it seems cool to me"

Earth Dragon's reply:
"what about this site do you find good? it costs money to be a member and you cant simply veiw the contents of the site! may be after you pay money you get something, but I dont see a lot of people paying money before you can view the material. just my opinon"

[Vasanth]

You said:
"I have been a sifu of ba bu tang lang and shyun tai chi chuan for over 7 years now and never has someone walked in to my kwon and disspresected me by asking me to spar them to see if I was a good teacher! that is a horrible thing you said that if teachers dont do this they have no business teaching martial arts! I would think that a teacher that stoops to the level of sparring a person off the street has no business teaching!"

You're dead wrong. This is how it has been done in China for AGES, and this is how its still done. It has nothing to do with respect. You open up a school in China, you'll be challenged by the local masters. It's customary.

I dare you to open up a school in China.

No.. really.. I DARE you.

That's why you don't have lame hacks in silly chinese pajamas teaching Kung Fu. They all get their asses kicked from the onset, and thus don't have a chance to pollute with their wannabe martial art.

It's too bad things aren't the same in North America. I think you'd see the quality of martials arts take a sharp increase, and a few schools would certainly close down.

*cough* ;)

[Kaitain(UK)]

if some guy walks in off the street and wants to test my instructor why would he bother? He has nothing to prove to someone he doesn't know..

After 3 months Taiji training I started sparring with my instructor and he knocked down in about 3 seconds - he could have done that to me when I walked in but I needed to earn his respect before he would spar with me - he has too much to risk to be fighting every wannabe that walks in. In this age of 'comebacks' even a victory guarantees nothing - slashed tires, assault on students etc. If the purpose of sparring is to convince a student that it works then that's fine - if it is to prove to a stranger that it works then I see little value in it.

I've seen some drugged up guy stagger in to the childrens class and run at my instructor when his back was turned - he threw the guy on his backside and the guy ran away. He could have really hurt him but he didn't need to. The kids learned that temperance/control is vital to proper martial skill and useage. I learned the same.

I don't have a problem either way with teachers - as long as they have something to teach me then I will study.

The usual argument is - do you learn boxing from the guy who can knock you out or the guy who trains good fighters? I don't see being able to batter someone as any sort of validation of their ability to teach those skills.

Equally if they don't demonstrate skill in the class environment then you should probably move on - any good instructor can demonstrate what he is teaching.

I think it is beneath an instructor to 'prove' his art against just anyone who walks in - is that teaching any sort of 'way'?

Internally speaking I have no problem with someone coming in and asking to push hands to 'feel' what is on offer - I would expect it to be with a student first. If the student is easily dominated (through correct principles) then the instructor should push with them. If he is dominated then he has proven superior skill in pushing hands. I would say that this carries more weight internally than externally - after all the skills are meant to be timeless.

It's a hard one to judge tbh - my instructors are all of the opinion that they have nothing to prove. They aren't interested - and it isn't through lack of ability, just lack of interest.

As a last point - I know some of you are aware of what our arts are actually for. Sparring is great for building skills at sticking and closing etc - but it isn't the real thing. How then do you prove your art effectively without seriously injuring the questioning person - can they understand that the light slap to the neck and the elbow touching their chest are indicative of crippling hits? You certainly can't afford to use them properly...

I don't know if it's the same in Chine or not - it'd be great to walk into every lame-ass Taiji school that has 'taiji joy/think of a rainbow QiGong' and smack the crap out of the instructor. Shows how far I have to go spiritually :)

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"