How can i tell between good/bad instructor?

[EARTH DRAGON]

You're dead wrong. This is how it has been done in China for AGES, and this is how its still done. It has nothing to do with respect. You open up a school in China, you'll be challenged by the local masters. It's customary.

Do you live in china? have you ever been to china? or are you speaking from something you have heard from somebody else? I thought so.

I dare you to open up a school in China.

No.. really.. I DARE you.

No really I dont live in china why would I open a school there? have you also heard what they do in texas? lets get real here

That's why you don't have lame hacks in silly chinese pajamas teaching Kung Fu. They all get their asses kicked from the onset, and thus don't have a chance to pollute with their wannabe martial art.

Are you saying this about me? I hope not for you dont even know me!!!! nor have you been to any one of the schools across the US that are in our federation! so dont fly off the handle and get yourself into something that you might regret!
just for the record I teach (ba bu tang lang chuan) a very highly respected praying mantis system with direct lineage to me. and also Wu stlye tai chi chuan also with direct lineage to me, the founder Wu ching Chan exchanged entire systems with my shrfu's shrfu master Wei Xiao Tung may be youve heard of him? So I hope your not saying that 8step praying mantis is a wannabe art! for that would show true ignorance on your part and agin prove that arguing with someone that has little knowledge of what there talking about is a complete waste of time.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[gazza99]

"It's too bad things aren't the same in North America. I think you'd see the quality of martials arts take a sharp increase, and a few schools would certainly close down"

So you would rather have laws that allow others to assault people freely? Id rather let the fakes have their Mcdojo's -and ignore them.
Kaitain has already made every point I was goint to make, so perhaps you should re-read his post and give it some thought. If someone goes around challenging instructors eventually they are going to get killed/hospitalized or win a nice prison sentence.
Regards,
Gary

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com

[EARTH DRAGON]

kaitian where have you been? I have tryed and tryed to point out to these people that it is a no win situation all by myself, and with one arm tied behind my back until I was blue in the face! thank god for gary who also feels the same way but up until now my argument fell on deaf ears. I am just glad to hear that some one out there understands what is right and what is not so right, maybe now they will understand! thank you

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Sum Guye]

Stubbs who started this thread by saying:

"when i was deciding what kung fu teacher to go with it was easy, i sparred them, looked at their forms, concepts, and how i got along with them"

is headed for the hospital or prison time?

In my opinion, no one who agreed with Stubbs on 'sparring' with a perspective teacher sounded like thugs who want to hurt anyone. To me, they all sound like folks who want hands-on verification that a perspective teacher has better skill than them.

It's simply two different ways of thinking. If any one ever asks you to spar- you'd say 'no' they'd say 'ok' and they'd leave. But in your heads you've built this innocent request into some death struggle duel to the end... you guys crack me up.

And Earth Dragon, I owe you an apology. In this thread it does appear that I cast the first 'personal attack' by stating that "you type very well for having such an extreme mental disability"
I was frustrated by your persistence at reading something horrid into something simple and jumping all over it as if your opinion is the only opinion that could possibly be correct. It was rude of me, I apologize. It is still frustrating but also wildly amusing.

Personally, I'm not a violent person.. not even a physically imposing person, but if/when I decide to persue another teacher we will spar before I spend a dime on them. But don't worry, it wont be you, gary or kaitain... (no need to freak out with one hand tied behind your back till your face turns blue)... you've made it painfully obvious that would be a waste of my time.

Stubbs, I'm dying to know what you think of all this.

[Kaitain(UK)]

John Ding and Ip Tai Tak don't need to prove anything to some putz who walks in off the street - I'm sure they'll lose sleep over the loss of such an open-minded and objective student

Have you ever sparred a complete stranger? I have - some self-proclaimed kickboxer came into the gym and asked to spar - he ended up losing it and charging me in blind rage - I had to hurt him to protect myself. He never came back and I felt like **** for having to do it.

So I wouldn't do it - however they appear to be you know nothing about them. Do they have self-control? Can they protect themselves at all? What are they hoping to learn?

So if you walked into my school and asked my instructor to spar he would tell you no - he'd explain why and he'd explain that you can watch him spar with his students. Then he'd explain that sparring isn't remotely representative of the art and show you applications on a student attacking at full pace. It's then your choice if you choose to join or not - he's shown you:
a)he spars his students
b)he thinks sparring demonstrates nothing about the art
c)he can teach and demonstrate the Yang side of the art

That's what I saw when I joined, and that's why I stayed.

You seem to misunderstand the point - you know what you want to get out of the encounter. But the person you ask to spar doesn't know that, does he? You know it isn't a life threatening death-fight - but how does the person you want to spar know that?

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Kaitain(UK)]

"when i was deciding what kungfu teacher to go with it was easy, i sparred them, looked at their forms, concepts, and how i got along with them.

but with tai chi, for me it seems harder because a tai chi/ chi kung(qigong) technique is designed to work for you internaly, rather than externaly on an opponant."

So try not to misrepresent someone eh?

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Sum Guye]

you've got to be joking!
That's all blag. Blagitty blag, blag.

That only shows that Stubbs had a misunderstanding of what 'internal martial arts' are about... but rather than clear THAT up... it's all been a pecking fest over the 'sparring' he mentioned doing with his perspective External teachers.
And your summation that sparring demonstrates nothing about the art shows that you (and/or your teachers have the same misunderstanding).

There's nothing to argue and nothing to prove.
We have different philosophies about life and paths of learning.

However, I beg you to show where I misrepresented anyone... and I'll break it down for you in simpler terms so you can more easily follow the flow of the thread, eh. I haven't misquoted nor misrepresented anyone in the slightest, eh. :rolleyes:

[Sum Guye]

Would John Ding and Ip Tai Tak study under a teacher tomorrow without first testing that teacher's skill? (as I've said all along, I'm talking about good ol' fashioned FRIENDLY sparring... even just non-cooperative push hands)

Go ask them and let me know.

[Kaitain(UK)]

sparring is not full contact - it shows nothing about the art itself

if you watch someone sparring you don't see what the art is for -

The art is used where I learn it like this (simple scenario):

a throws punch combination, right lead jab; b sticks to first punch with ward off, takes outside left line (preventing any follow up from other arm), strikes neck with right cutting palm strike (usually knocks you out if done properly), elbow strike to ribs with left, right elbow strike to chest. Knee or Low line front kick to face as he falls. Fight is over. I haven't covered the kicks to the knee on the way in or what you'd do to someone on the ground if necessary. It's all nasty.

You can't do that in sparring. Hence sparring demonstrates nothing - it teaches a lot in terms of sticking and so forth but it shows nothing.

Stubbs misrepresentation etc etc

You took part of Stubbs' post that supported your argument and neglected the part that said 'but in taiji..' which showed that Stubbs thought of the two areas as different. Sure it shows that he misunderstands the internal arts - but that doesn't negate the fact that it puts different meaning to his post.

"There's nothing to argue and nothing to prove." - all you do is argue, I've yet to see you debate your view on a single thread. The point of a forum is to discuss - you seem fixated with shouting people down and insulting people and their teachers.

Last of all - you consistently fail to address one of my points - I don't think anyone here is a thug - what I'm saying is that the prospective instructor doesn't know what their disposition is and as such there is no onus on whether or not he spars with them. So I'm not attacking the people who want to do this - I'm defending/justifying the instructors who refuse to do it.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Kaitain(UK)]

JD is 1st disciple of ITT who is 1st disciple of Master Yang Sau Chung - Yang style

If they were to go elsewhere it would be fascinating as it would be outside of Yang style - I'll ask John Ding but I know his answer "I can see what they have". He wouldn't need to push hands or anything. Just by watching the form they can tell what is and isn't there. The form is the source of everything else - if that is incorrect then nothing else matters.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Sum Guye]

and how, exactly, does the paragraph containing his misunderstanding of internal arts make a different meaning to his post?

[Kaitain(UK)]

without explicitly excluding taiji as seperate to Kung-fu the meaning comes across as

'When I looked for a kung-fu school it was easy - I sparred, watched their forms etc etc' - Kung-fu is an all encompassing term for CMA, so Taiji is implicitly included in that statement

when you specifically exclude Taiji it sounds more like:
"When I looked for an external CMA school it was easy because I sparred, watched forms etc etc - but with Taiji it isn't so easy as there is more to it than just external (visible) useage/application"

Hence I felt it was misrepresenting Stubbs as someone who walks into any Kung-fu school and wants to spar the instructor. When he was asking advice because his belief appears to be that that is no way to find a good taiji instructor.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Sum Guye]

I thought he was saying:

"when I studied external... it was easy, I sparred, looked at their forms... how I got along with them... But Tai Ji seems different because it is designed to work for you (the practicioner) internally... and not(work) against an opponent"

My take on that was; Stubbs thought external is for fighting... Internal is only for happy organs and longer life...not fighting, so how does one (stubbs) know when a teacher is good or not.

Then someone replied that there's not really a difference... meaning external arts AND internal arts are both 'martial' (designed to work against an opponent).... and that a good teacher probably wouldn't mind sparring.

Then, Earth Dragon and GLW went wild taking that guys opinion way out of context and starting this whole mess, which you and I are continuing right now (2:18am my time).

Me- I believe Internal arts are for fighting.
I believe a skilled internal artist can pull off techniques in sparring (I do it regularly).
And I know how to ask a teacher if we can spar without him/her worrying about one of us ending up dead/hospitalized or in prison.

I guess I'm special like that.

Good night.
Sum Guye

[EARTH DRAGON]

first apology accepted! again I do not wish to get into a ****ing match by stating each others opinon.
It was dont call me spanky that said If an instructor won't cross hands/sparr with you, walk away.....most of the time they are not teaching the martial side.
then chris mickinny said At the VERY least, ask to see a demonstration of the combat applications of several Taiji postures. If the instructor is unable or unwilling to provide such a demonstration, I suggest you look elsewhere.

then after some other posts you came back with !!!!!
!Earth Dragon, you type very well for having such an extreme mental disability. You quoted what I said verbatim- but then ranted on about something I never said... it's kinda funny. (D-C-M-Spanky
seems to suffer a similar affliction... reads one
thing, takes it to a ridiculous extreme).
What I said was... "if you're not WILLING to do a little friendly sparring you've got no business
teaching a MARTIAL ART." (I'm not suggesting every teacher should FIGHT every student, nor that
every student should FIGHT every teacher at all.
'Willing' and 'Martial' are the opperative terms
in my sentence).

so you see why this was uncalled for to? thats why I got so mad at you. I dont mind disscussing peoples different views, thats what makes the world unique! what I do mind is when some one jumps into a thread and says things like your stupid and your opinons is wrong! do you now see how bad that sounds?
but yet you said this to katian
However, I beg you to show where I misrepresented anyone... and I'll break it down for you in simpler terms so you can more easily follow the flow of the thread, eh. I haven't misquoted nor misrepresented anyone in the slightest, eh.
you seem to think that people are not as smart as you! from your words you belittle people by saying if you cant understand it it will talk baby talk! do you now see how that makes you sound? again this is not meant to sound harsh but if you read over your posts again maybe it will shed a little light on the subject and you can understand where Im comming from. you can excersize your opinon without personal attacks on people and they will take you more seriously and your opinon will be listen to more closely! thank you again for your apology it meant a lot!!!!!!!!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Sum Guye]

"-then after some other posts you came back with-"

it's all the 'stuff' contained in those 'other posts' posts that lead to me realizing you have a mental disability. I was frustrated at your inability to comprehend clearly what you read. Maybe I should word that differently; your ability to read offensive suggestions where none have been made. (I've been reading your posts for a LONG time before ever even signing up on this board... it's not just in this thread, you do it often). You take offense where not is intended and it got me riled when you turned your ineptitude towards my opinion being stated to someone else.

The thing I find funny about it is that my suggestions to Stubbs for checking out a new teacher were exactly as follows:
*Observe a class.
*Take note of how students respond to a teacher.
*Take note of how/what the teacher teaches.
*Does he/she have something you'd like to learn.
(if an IMA class has mats and teaches applications for the form's movements- that's a good sign.)

Did I suggest sparring or challenging a teacher?
Nope. But I did, however, say that a martial arts teachers shouldn't be affraid to do a little friendly sparring with anyone who's eager and willing to spar.... or else they should drop the 'martial' from their title and just call themselves Internal Artist. That's my opinion... which YOU jumped all over. It wasn't my suggestion for Stubbs or anyone... just my opinion about how someone handles themselves in a particular line of work.

Get over it, chum.