Is Erle Montaigue decent?

[IronFist]

I've heard mixed things about him. Is his skill good? Is he a good teacher? Are his videos good?

I've got one of his dim mak encyclopedias and it seems pretty well written and informative.

Iron

[Braden]

For whatever it's worth, he's got my thumbs up on all accounts.

[OldFatBaldGuy]

He has a large, and devoted following, and many more times that number of detractors. I heard 2nd hand that Mike Sigman once made the comment that he didn't think much of EM's Taiji, but thought he would be an extremely difficult opponent to face. (If that's not true Mike, apologies!) Again, that was 2nd information from someone who knows Mike personally.

I've found Erle to be a genuine, caring individual who is very willing to share information and in spite of all the tapes he has for sale, he gives away a lot of info and products. I once ordered a tape from him, and he sent me another one to augment the training in the one I ordered at no charge. The down-side I've found is he is very highly opinionated and doesn't care who's toes he steps on.....say, he'd fit right in here!

I can't comment on his Taiji, but he gets my vote as a good, decent person.

Respectfully.

OldFatBaldGuy

"Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change."

[Losttrak]

"The down-side I've found is he is very highly opinionated and doesn't care who's toes he steps on.....say, he'd fit right in here!"

Lol What is martial arts w/o **** and vinegar?

"If you and I agree all the time, then one of us is unnecessary."

[YMS]

I guess it depends on who you ask. I know somone who came from EM taiji after studying with him for several years and supposedly he didnt learn much. He was saying that he is real knowledgeable fellow but he held back alot and you would have to be with him for a very long time before he would give you anything you could really use.

Thats not my opinion but this is what i heard.

RaVeR

[Nexus]

I have seen many of his videos, and actually I have probably 20+ of them (hes a good mate) although I do not use his videos as my learning guide. Although he is one of the few if not the only person who has Yang Lu'chans old yang style on video with fa-jing movements and the jumping movements etc.

He also has a yang cheng-fu video (Worth learning first IMO) that includes basic qi gong.

He also has 4 qi gong video series, including advanced qi gong methods such as reverse breathing, and the top in, bottom out and vise versa etc.

Also he has san shou videos, push hands and such and all of these videos contain a quality that is certainly better then "Average" for taiji.

One must keep in mind that many of these videos he made in 1985-1986, and he has written most of his websites articles and info since then.

He may not have been necessarily a "master of 30+ years" when his videos were developed, but they do lay an excellent ground work and are incredibly detailed.

I would say they are some of the most detailed videos I have ever seen, in some cases too-detailed!! and it would be diffucult, if not impossible to not learn at least something from them.

I would recommend you getting his yang chengfu video as it includes basic qi gong and the ycf long form and is a good starter. That way you can get the feel for his video style and not need to pay for his common (4-video packages) which most of his more advanced techniques require. He has hours of great information.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

[gazza99]

I have personally trained with Erle, as well as studied his videos and books. After years of hard work I am now one of his instructors.
I have never met a better martial artist, nor seen a better system. I have taught people that have been training twice as long as I have been alive, and they have thanked me for the enlightenment I have given them, that is all because of Erle.
I cant even express the gratitude I have for the things he has given me, if any of you are ever in Oklahoma city, Ill be glad to give anyone a free private lesson. Thus far I havent had anyone unimpressed with Erles stuff.
Regards
Gary R.

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com

[brassmonkey]

From skimming numerous posts by Earle's students on here and reading his free online book I've noted a few unique points(I've saved my commentary since I'm a beginner and know nothing but I'll let the readers draw theyre own conclusions):

1. His students will tell you that noone's else's tai chi looks like his for good reason. Earle is the sole inheritor of the true transmission of tai chi from Yang Lu Chan back to Wudang skipping Chen village contribution originally named Dim Mak.
2. There is 2 Tai chi forms:
a. Yin form: popularized by Yang ChenFu,
this is a chi kung form
b. Yang form: Yang Shou Hou's form, this is
the fighting form
3. Earle's tai chi system utilizes the mindset of
a reptillian brain
4. The attacks rely heavily on fa jing characterized by a violent twisting of the waist and a snapping sound created by the hand.
5. Internal Connections: I've read of none except if you count # 4.
6. In fighting there is no yielding but in push hands there is for some reason I can't recall?
7. The system is technique based with no emphasis on the classics.
8. Yang Cheng Fu died early because he became obese by practicing Repulse Monkey too much which makes you gain weight, I can't recall the posture that makes you lose weight, you can wade through Sam Wiley's, Gary's and Chris Mckinley's posts for more on this. Please correct me if im off on any of these points or expand on them.

[Braden]

Erle doesn't claim to be "the sole inheritor of the true transmission of tai chi," he only claims that his is a different transmission than what you generally see in the west. I've spoken with a couple other groups who claim similar lineage to Erle, but are unaffiliated with him, and are teaching essentially the same curriculum, including the old long form, the fast sanshou form, and the taiji short stick form.

Erle's methods use yielding in fighting. For example, his "Post" drills which he calls the single most important drills for understanding internal body mechanics are all about yielding. All he says is that you don't yield in the large-scale sense in real combat. You don't step back, you don't retreat, you don't dodge, you don't even yield subtley unless it's part of an attack. On a related note, he also says you shouldn't block.

"The system is technique based with no emphasis on the classics."

I'm not sure where you got this.

[brassmonkey]

"Erle doesn't claim to be "the sole inheritor of the true transmission of tai chi," he only claims that his is a different transmission than what you generally see in the west."
-He may not use those exact words but he certainly portrays it by using words like watered down and further watered down when talking of YCF's form then CMC's. He takes Chen village out of the equation altogether. So who's left? Well if Wu became more popular and could take $ out of his pocket you'd hear him downgrades those Styles.

"I've spoken with a couple other groups who claim similar lineage to Erle, but are unaffiliated with him, and are teaching essentially the same curriculum, including the old long form, the fast sanshou form, and the taiji short stick form."
-Its funny I remember reading somewhere on the net about a time Earle was claiming to teach a stick form originating from a famous Master until he found out the family of the Master had moved to the West and was refuting that theyre father ever taught such a form or had 1 but who knows with internet stories what is true like the 1 you'll hear on the BJJ forums about Renzo Gracie's visit to Australia.

"Erle's methods use yielding in fighting. For example, his "Post" drills which he calls the single most important drills for understanding internal body mechanics are all about yielding. All he says is that you don't yield in the large-scale sense in real combat. You don't step back, you don't retreat, you don't dodge, you don't even yield subtley unless it's part of an attack. On a related note, he also says you shouldn't block."
-I don't know what to make of this, first you say he does use yielding then you have a quote where he says you shouldn't yield at all in a fight. To practice yielding in practice but not use it in fighting makes little sense to me perhaps I'm missing something?

"The system is technique based with no emphasis on the classics."

I'm not sure where you got this.
-I think its pretty clear. Now care to comment on points 2,3,4,5,8?

[IronFist]

Yang Cheng Fu died early because he became obese by practicing Repulse Monkey too much which makes you gain weight, I can't recall the posture that makes you lose weight

Holy ****e, certain positions and forms make you gain weight? How is this? Do they mess with your chi and metabolism or thyroid or something?

That's messed up. There's a posture that makes you lose weight? Why don't they market it as a diet program?

Iron

[Braden]

"He may not use those exact words..."

No, he doesn't. It would be best to attack him for things he actually claims, rather than things you which you decide for some reason that he implies.

"...by using words like watered down and further watered down..."

You're right. He does have a generally low opinion of taiji in the west. So do I. He doesn't have a universally low opinion of practitioners of certain lineages (despite what you hear his internet proponents say, and despite what you hear his internent opponents say). In fact, he often teaches a YCF form himself!

However, it's pretty common for practitioners of one version of a style to attack practitioners of another version. In fact, isn't this what YOU'RE doing right now?

"Its funny I remember reading somewhere on the net about a time Earle was claiming to teach a stick form..."

He still teaches it, as do many others from that side of the Yang family. Sounds legit to me.

"I don't know what to make of this, first you say he does use yielding then you have a quote where he says you shouldn't yield at all in a fight. To practice yielding in practice but not use it in fighting makes little sense to me perhaps I'm missing something?"

Yes, you're missing something. I'll try to explain again. His idea is not that you shouldn't yield. It's that you shouldn't "yield, period." That is, yielding isn't in and of itself a technique, in his eyes; but still can be used as part of an offensive technique. For example, when you just yield, you may pull away from an attacker. In Erle's philosophy, he says this is just inviting him to attack again. On the other hand, you can yield as part of an overall attack. For example, if I am standing normally, and someone comes at me from the side with an attack (let's say he pushes my shoulder), what I may do is to ground the force into my structure while turning to face my attacker, using the energy he has 'given' me to adopt the basic bagua posture, which in itself becomes an attack. This is an excellent example of yielding (in fact, without ever making contact with the attack itself, I have made determined attackers fall over themselves using this method, through yielding alone). Yet it is not a 'yield, period', but rather, a yielding as part of a single offensive manouver. This is the sort of yielding Erle advocates. Do you understand now?

"I think its pretty clear."

No, it's not pretty clear. Where does he ignore the classics? Certainly, in lipservice alone he does not, for he avidly teaches the guidelines for practice. You could argue that he does not manifest them; however you'd have to argue something for it to be convincing. As for technique-based, again it would be nice to see an example of this allegation.

"Now care to comment on points 2,3,4,5,8?"

"2. There is 2 Tai chi forms:"

I've never heard him use that nomenclature before, but yes, he is fond of the idea of two taiji forms. So are the majority of taiji teachers outside of CMC. What's your point?

"3. Earle's tai chi system utilizes the mindset of
a reptillian brain."

Again, I wasn't sure what your point was. He's got some ideas about a different mindset for fighting and some ideas on how to train for that mindset.

"4. The attacks rely heavily on fa jing characterized by a violent twisting of the waist and a snapping sound created by the hand."

Yes, he stresses fajing. His fajing I've seen doesn't exhibit much external violent twisting of the wait, nor snapping of the hand, unless it hits something (except in the sense of the meat of the palm snapping in and out, which to my understand is an integral part of proper fajing).

"5. Internal Connections"

Again, you didn't make much of a specific critique, so it's kind of hard to respond to.

"8. Yang Cheng Fu died early because he became obese by practicing Repulse Monkey too much..."

I've never heard Erle claim this. Perhaps you could provide a reference.

[brassmonkey]

"He may not use those exact words..."
No, he doesn't. It would be best to attack him for things he actually claims, rather than things you which you decide for some reason that he implies.

-This is the vibe I have gotten from him I could be wrong but I dont think so.

"...by using words like watered down and further watered down..."

You're right. He does have a generally low opinion of taiji in the west. So do I. He doesn't have a universally low opinion of practitioners of certain lineages (despite what you hear his internet proponents say, and despite what you hear his internent opponents say). In fact, he often teaches a YCF form himself!

-He has a low opinion of taiji in the east also as I have read but this doesnt matter.

However, it's pretty common for practitioners of one version of a style to attack practitioners of another version. In fact, isn't this what YOU'RE doing right now?

-Well originally I only typed in points unique to his system and if you felt these points to be good ones then they would be compliments as I hear people knock my lineage for certain points I take as compliments I simply see the detractors in these cases as not understanding the why, so you should take my points as compliments to your style. Of course I interjected a few comments that makes it clear what I think. Personally I think he's on the same level as Sin The and Ashida Kim but my views can change.

"Its funny I remember reading somewhere on the net about a time Earle was claiming to teach a stick form..."

He still teaches it, as do many others from that side of the Yang family. Sounds legit to me.

-I wasn't referring to a Yang family stick form. If you can find some old archives of Jareks you can read the same story I read.

"I don't know what to make of this, first you say he does use yielding then you have a quote where he says you shouldn't yield at all in a fight. To practice yielding in practice but not use it in fighting makes little sense to me perhaps I'm missing something?"

Yes, you're missing something. I'll try to explain again. His idea is not that you shouldn't yield. It's that you shouldn't "yield, period." That is, yielding isn't in and of itself a technique, in his eyes; but still can be used as part of an offensive technique. For example, when you just yield, you may pull away from an attacker. In Erle's philosophy, he says this is just inviting him to attack again. On the other hand, you can yield as part of an overall attack. For example, if I am standing normally, and someone comes at me from the side with an attack (let's say he pushes my shoulder), what I may do is to ground the force into my structure while turning to face my attacker, using the energy he has 'given' me to adopt the basic bagua posture, which in itself becomes an attack. This is an excellent example of yielding (in fact, without ever making contact with the attack itself, I have made determined attackers fall over themselves using this method, through yielding alone). Yet it is not a 'yield, period', but rather, a yielding as part of a single offensive manouver. This is the sort of yielding Erle advocates. Do you understand now?

-No I dont. I'd probably have to see it. First it sounds like you root which is clearly not yielding and worse yet if that push was a punch I'd like to see you absorb that one into your structure. Then as if the person pushing after feeling you root is just going to keep doing the same thing after feeling this and allow you to deflect and turn. You also said by just yielding you may pull away from an attacker, read the classics and you'll probably find words like sticking along with a couple other useful ones.

"I think its pretty clear."

No, it's not pretty clear. Where does he ignore the classics? Certainly, in lipservice alone he does not, for he avidly teaches the guidelines for practice. You could argue that he does not manifest them; however you'd have to argue something for it to be convincing. As for technique-based, again it would be nice to see an example of this allegation.

-Well my last entry should be a start for you to think about. I think I've been talking about some of the principles throughout this without giving away too much what I emphasize in my practice, as I'm not teaching I wont comment further.

"Now care to comment on points 2,3,4,5,8?"

"2. There is 2 Tai chi forms:"

I've never heard him use that nomenclature before, but yes, he is fond of the idea of two taiji forms. So are the majority of taiji teachers outside of CMC. What's your point?

-My point being that its ridiculous calling YCF's form as being a chi kung form and not for fighting.

"3. Earle's tai chi system utilizes the mindset of
a reptillian brain."

Again, I wasn't sure what your point was. He's got some ideas about a different mindset for fighting and some ideas on how to train for that mindset.

-Only pointing out unique qualities of Montaigues system. I don't think its part of any traditional Tai Chi Chuan system but if he can improve it all the better for his students.

"4. The attacks rely heavily on fa jing characterized by a violent twisting of the waist and a snapping sound created by the hand."

Yes, he stresses fajing. His fajing I've seen doesn't exhibit much external violent twisting of the wait, nor snapping of the hand, unless it hits something (except in the sense of the meat of the palm snapping in and out, which to my understand is an integral part of proper fajing).

-I only go by what his students have wrote on here and what I read in his book and its always this type of shaking that some of the Tai Chi greats of the past admonished there students over...Chen Fake comes to mind. Maybe you need some private lessons from Earle himself as he says in the online book that the snapping cannot be fully explained in writing but in person.
"5. Internal Connections"

Again, you didn't make much of a specific critique, so it's kind of hard to respond to.

-I think its pretty self evident. His system relies on turning the waist and making a snapping sound with the hand...what this has to do with fa jing you tell me.

"8. Yang Cheng Fu died early because he became obese by practicing Repulse Monkey too much..."

I've never heard Erle claim this. Perhaps you could provide a reference.

-This is what 1 of his students claimed on here, wade through some of Gary's, Chris's and Sams posts. My post's here is simply for those who may think of studying Tai Chi Chuan and wouldn't want them to confuse it with what Earle does. Man I'm giving Sam Wiley a run for his money on the length of my post...time to practice for me. I hope I don't have to respond to many more of these it even got confusing for me on this one reading my comment to your previous post then your comment to my comment then finally me commenting on your last comment.

[Braden]

"Well originally I only typed in points unique to his system..."

And most of what you wrote was wrong. I was just clarifying.

"...so you should take my points as compliments to your style."

I should have mentioned, I'm not one of Erle's students.

"I wasn't referring to a Yang family stick form."

Well that's the only traditional stick form he has ever taught. I read the thread on Jarek's when it was posted, and Erle hasn't changed anything since then.

"No I dont. I'd probably have to see it."

Yes, you would. One of the main problems with discussing the more subtle skills.

"First it sounds like you root...as if the person pushing after feeling you root is just going to keep doing the same thing..."

Yes, it is rooting. To my understand, everything requires rooting. The reason the person pushing 'keeps doing the same thing' is because of the yielding. You root/accept their force, but you do it dynamically. They should never be able to feel your root in such a move. We may have some trouble connecting on this topic, as I am a bagua practitioner, not a taiji one.

"You also said by just yielding you may pull away from an attacker, read the classics and you'll probably find words like sticking along with a couple other useful ones."

I've read the classics and I'm familiar with sticking. But thank you for the advice all the same. I was trying to illustrate the difference between a pure yielding movement and yielding executed simultaneously with attack. To this end, I was using hyperbole. I apologize if it was misleading.

"...as I'm not teaching I wont comment further."

Of course that's your choice. I don't see the point in publically posting an attack on someone if you're not willing to explain it, let alone back it up with example though.

"My point being that its ridiculous calling YCF's form as being a chi kung form and not for fighting."

Could you provide a reference from where he said that? He DOES say that during practice of the form, you shouldn't be actively thinking of the moves as specific techniques. Do you disagree with that? Contrary to your assertion that he believes the form is not for fighting, he does teach applications from it. However, he does suggest that the sanshou form is more adequately suited to a more direct interpretation of applications than the long form. Do you disagree with that?

"His system relies on turning the waist and making a snapping sound with the hand."

Of course his fajing relies upon a shaking of the dantien. Yours doesn't? As far as overt violent twisting of the waist, of course this shouldn't be required for proper fajing. I believe Erle would agree.

I understand your problems with Erle. He is unfortunately surrounded by alot of sillyness.

However, when you break down your arguments, they all spring from "I heard on the internet that...", "I got the impression that..." and "I heard one of Erle's supporters say that..."; none of which is anything Erle could legitimately be held responsable for.

The man has publically posted quite a remarkable amount of information on his opinions. On his website, there is hundreds of pages on his throughts on everything from sex and what he eats, to his approach to martial arts. There was probably a couple hours of video clips showing him teaching, performing forms, etc. There are maybe 20 full length books publically posted. If you want to lay critique upon Erle there is PLENTY of first-hand information you can use to substantiate your arguments. He also religiously answers emails from complete strangers on any topic. I don't see any excuse to attack him based on third-hand information.

Here are some statements I would agree to concerning Erle:

-He has some inexcusably over-zealous supporters making ludicrous statements.
-He is eccentric, opinionated, and undiplomatic.
-He makes up funny names for stuff he teaches.
-He focuses heavily on certain, limited aspects of the arts he teaches.
-He markets some of his stuff too well, or too poorly, depending on your perspective.
-His history is overtly flawed.

However, I don't think any of these are ****ing faults.

I strongly believe in open forums to critique instructors, especially of the neijia, as it is so difficult for beginners to adequately judge their options.

However, especially on the internet, open forums rapidly disintegrate into witch-hunts based entirely on heresay. You can prevent this from happening by basing your critiques on first-hand information. In Erle's case, he has provided plenty of such information for us to base our critiques on.

[brassmonkey]

Well originally I only typed in points unique to his system..."
And most of what you wrote was wrong. I was just clarifying.

-Well I disagree but you make some valid points later in this post about what his students may say and what he does, my information was based not only on his 1 online book I read but also what his students say so I stand by what I wrote.

"No I dont. I'd probably have to see it."

Yes, you would. One of the main problems with discussing the more subtle skills.

"First it sounds like you root...as if the person pushing after feeling you root is just going to keep doing the same thing..."

Yes, it is rooting. To my understand, everything requires rooting. The reason the person pushing 'keeps doing the same thing' is because of the yielding. You root/accept their force, but you do it dynamically. They should never be able to feel your root in such a move. We may have some trouble connecting on this topic, as I am a bagua practitioner, not a taiji one.

-Well when I used the word rooting I was really talking about absorbing into the ground and not so much as a root to the ground.

However, when you break down your arguments, they all spring from "I heard on the internet that...", "I got the impression that..." and "I heard one of Erle's supporters say that..."; none of which is anything Erle could legitimately be held responsable for.

-Well alot of my arguments come from students of his whom he's authorized to teach. Maybe I go too far assuming that his senior students would be a accurate reflection of him, then again some of my points come straight from his book.

The man has publically posted quite a remarkable amount of information on his opinions. On his website, there is hundreds of pages on his throughts on everything from sex and what he eats, to his approach to martial arts. There was probably a couple hours of video clips showing him teaching, performing forms, etc. There are maybe 20 full length books publically posted. If you want to lay critique upon Erle there is PLENTY of first-hand information you can use to substantiate your arguments. He also religiously answers emails from complete strangers on any topic. I don't see any excuse to attack him based on third-hand information.

-Well his senior students and he himself is hardly third hand information. I'll see if I can find these other 19 books, to be fair perhaps what I have read of his methodology perhaps only a small part of the big picture of what he does.


However, especially on the internet, open forums rapidly disintegrate into witch-hunts based entirely on heresay. You can prevent this from happening by basing your critiques on first-hand information. In Erle's case, he has provided plenty of such information for us to base our critiques on.

-Agreed