The myth of the standing arm break...

[Knifefighter]

I’ve certainly applied standing arm bars in sparring (no breaks or dislocating of joints) against what I would call skilled opponents. (They knew standing arm bars were in my repertoire) [/B]

For all you guys who are getting these standing arm locks, hyperextensions, etc, how is this happening?

Are your training partners tapping out when they are standing?

Or are they constantly having to recover from hyperextension injuries or broken arms?

Just curious as to how you are working these.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Okay....I see where you're going....

How do we know they work if we don't follow through?

Well--hyperextending a joint is easy. I've seen it done when some stupid kid didn't tap out on a routine hold put on him by a newbie. I've seen it when a friend whiffed a kick in a soccer game.

I've felt excruciating pressure that numbed my arm for a good ten minutes when sparring with a 3rd degree BB used a breaking motion (didn't follow through--but I knew he could)...

In my school, we tap out when it's applied effectively in an actual hold (very rare). But to be honest, it's usually so quick (and doesn't involve actual grappling) that there is no tap out. Straight punches and jabs are the most susceptible to this (mine was a jab). It was quick--I didn't leave it hanging, and he didn't have a lot of time to move. He just had to be faster, and get the right angle. But that's all a part of the "sensitivity" training you don't believe in. Will it work against anyone anytime? Maybe not....but on some blue moon....

When I got shocked by it, it was just *pop* and me flailing around for a minute like a Ace Ventura hit by poison darts....and then me nursing a really sore joint for a week. He just trapped the elbow between two hands at the right moment, and *pop*

[Shaolin Wookie]

I'm not sold on their all-around effectiveness either, KF...

I've only actually seen that one applied the way it's mainly taught in form/drill...and that guy has a wicked fighting rep in our school.

But if he can do it, it can be done. You just have to be willing to sacrifice a guinea pig (in that case, me... )....

But against a boxer or cage-fighter---I don't really see it happening any time soon. It works best against controlled punches (on balance, less forward momentum, or straight leads). But since it has to involve two hands, or so much focus on one arm, it's unrealistic in match fighting--i.e. what if you don't get the right angle?

On that point I agree with you.

It's more what you'd use against Joe Schmo who can't fight at your level---just to let him know what's up.....

[Knifefighter]

Certain techniques are considerably more effective and efficient than others. A sure sign that a technique may not be that efficient is that it rarely works against fighters of the same caliber. Arm manipulations done on the ground vs. standing are one example of this. A person might be able to use standing arm breaks or hyperextensions against a complete slob on the street, but good luck trying to use them if you happen to come across someone who is not completely clueless. Trying to go for standing arm breaks and hyperextensions is a good way to give the opponent a chance to pound you.

[rogue]

Out here the army of the clueless out number the army those in the know. Just because it won't work against Tito's little cousin doesn't mean it's not a good technique against the average thug or bozo. You can what if any technique into the scrap pile just by creating adversaries that are better than you. I've used it, it worked, I'll keep it, and just avoid ****ing off any UFC guys.

[lkfmdc]

this thread is starting to burn out but let's ask a few more questions

KF, what do you think about arm bar initiated standing but end up on the ground

http://www.combatshuaichiao.com/photo/vol03/02.jpg

I have a very good friend in the Judo world who had to have major surgery on his arm as a result of that variation

[SifuAbel]

LOL @ KF's assumption that all techniques begin the moments before you make initial contact.

I.E. standing in plain view.

As if someone is just going to reach out and try to grab out someone's guard hand. Instead, of this being a set of techniques, like any other, that are enacted in the correct context of movement and timing.

I.E. opponent already well in motion committed to his own attack.

Or do you never extend your arm for anything?

The only thing left for you to do is to scour your UFC library and show us all the precedence you are talking about. WHEN have you seen this attempted and thwarted? If the answer is none, then you have only assumptions behind your logic.

The root word there is ass. As in , where this comes from.

Its obvious people's experience with this isn't enough for you.

Preach on, Reverend.

[Ironpig]

Yes, I trained to break legs, with Kicks. Its not an uncommon occurrence in KyokushinKai Tournaments that a leg is broken by a Mawashi Geri (round kick) SP? too many years now.

Never broke anyones leg. I used to be able to break a Louisville slugger, probably not that awesome to you guys.

Breaking bones is possible. Probably not that common. Dislocation of joints is much easier to obtain.

Limbs are less likely to break than the small bones in hands and feet, as well as face, teeth.

Sloppy grappling in bar fights probably resulted in more broken arms by simply falling on each other than purposeful attack on the 'street'.

Thinking about it, probably more people fell after the fight on the way to their car and broke arms than even that.

[matt]

I have broken ribs on two seperate opponants, one was a TKD blackbelt instructor with his own school in NY, the other a 275lbs with over 15 years of Kali, Wing Chun and JKD training. Oh, and most recently the nose of a BJJ purple belt.

ribs are pretty easy to break and training dont make you a good fighter just more knoledgeable about things you could do just like a degree in college doesnt make you an athority

I have never broken an arm on an opponant and God knows I have tried. The arm is very easy to pull back into a strong and secure structure, it can also be saved by using the very mobile waist to change position/relationship.

thats what chin na is for you control not let them

Very uncool and unnecessary to attack someone who: a) posted something true, practical to know and relevant and b) who has more practical experience than most here.

as always im a newbe but this post is inaccurate


The best way to get a break while standing is to scoop the others arm to where their elbow rests inside your elbow and swing like an uppercut and drive off the foot.

this is horrible and not correct! the best way to attack joints is to make a point in the middle of the joint and draw and x moving at forty five degree angles to the joint. On the elbow that would mean about 2-3 inches above or below the joint. Than you would strike into the joint this causes the bones to break. If you go elbow to elbow you might get a dislocation but never a break. You can however break the bone out of the flesh from a sever dislocation witch is not a real break but same result. If you apply the method of moving into the joint from the 45 degree angle im sure you might have more success


Someone posted an awesome video of this being pulled off in Japan I think during an MMA event.

have a nice day and keep working thats all we can do !!!

[FatherDog]

He just had to be faster,

Therefore, standing arm breaks typically work only if you are either significantly faster than your opponent, or catch them by surprise.

Since in a streetfight situation, you cannot rely on either of the above being true, I consider standing arm-breaks not to be a worthwhile use of training time.

I would think that CMA guys, who put such an emphasis on training techniques that you can still use as an old man, wouldn't be so high on techniques dependent on speed, which is one of the first things to deteriorate with age.

It seems we do not disagree on facts, merely on our reaction to those facts.

[FatherDog]

Out here the army of the clueless out number the army those in the know. Just because it won't work against Tito's little cousin doesn't mean it's not a good technique against the average thug or bozo. You can what if any technique into the scrap pile just by creating adversaries that are better than you. I've used it, it worked, I'll keep it, and just avoid ****ing off any UFC guys.

The thing about that is that techniques that will work on "UFC guys" will pretty much always work on the "army of the clueless". So you could train techniques that work on UFC guys /and/ the "army of the clueless, or just train techniques that work on the army of the clueless and /hope/ the next guy in a bar that thinks he hears you hitting on his girlfriend isn't a "UFC guy".

I don't think I have to say which path I consider a more efficient use of your time.

[rogue]

Whoops, I forgot that the Gracies have all the answers to street violence. My bad. In a street situation the last place I want to be is tied up with some frightened or pizzed off thug, standing or on the ground.

So you could train techniques that work on UFC guys

So you could take Tito or Chuck in a street fight? Cool.

[Knifefighter]

The only thing left for you to do is to scour your UFC library and show us all the precedence you are talking about.

The UFC people figured out years ago that this stuff doesn't work. Generally, they stick with stuff that works. People who try to use these types of techniques in a live venue quickly learn that they really can't be made to work in a purposeful manner.

WHEN have you seen this attempted and thwarted?

Quite often at the Dog Brothers gatherings, where fighters come from a variety of FMA and IMA backgrounds. FMA and IMA both include many standing breaks, hyperextensions and dislocations. However, as these fighters quickly find out, these things don't really work when you try to do them for real.

[Knifefighter]

this thread is starting to burn out but let's ask a few more questions

KF, what do you think about arm bar initiated standing but end up on the ground

http://www.combatshuaichiao.com/photo/vol03/02.jpg

Same as the others. Any break that will occur will be accidental.

The main problem with that technique is getting to that position in the frist place... really doesn't happen unless you competely outclass your opponent. The closest you are likely to get is the same Russian 2 on 1 that was discussed earlier, which is more of a control technique to set up a takedown.

I have a very good friend in the Judo world who had to have major surgery on his arm as a result of that variation

Accidental, just like the time I broke my arm in a wrestling match from the referee's position. It happens, but not on purpose.

[Knifefighter]

In a street situation the last place I want to be is tied up with some frightened or pizzed off thug, standing or on the ground.

It's nice to have that as option, so you can choose that if you need to.

Much better than only having the standup option with no grappling or groundfighting ability.

Of course, some people like to believe that their standup skills will ensure that they never be in a grappling or groundfighting situation... which is kind of ironic considering that attempting standing arm breaks is exactly where that leads to.

So you could take Tito or Chuck in a street fight? Cool.

Nobody's saying they could beat Tito or Chuck.

However, why not train as if you are going to go against one of them?
Why train for the lowest common denominator?