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Thread: The myth of the standing arm break...

  1. #61
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    i dont think its that hard to break an arm standing or on the ground when i was traning kuntao/silat a lot of things we did was to break everything you touch . and bones are not that hard

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg View Post
    a lot of things we did was to break everything you touch . and bones are not that hard


    ...................................

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    Kind of a spinoff from another thread... How many people have learned techniques that are supposed to break someone's arm, either while standing or on the way to the ground.

    The fact is, you will almost never be able to purposely break someone's arm in this manner if they are even somewhat skilled and/or strong and providing resistance. While these types of breaks do occasionally occur, they are almost always accidental.

    Any breaks that one can perform "on purpose" will be those that one can do while controlling the opponent on the ground, rather than when standing or throwing.

    I've done it. More than once.

    Strike them in the face (or other handy soft spot), as this tends to make uke more cooperative, then execute something on the order of a standing ude-hishigi-juji-gatame (Cross Armlock, for you uncultured Speedo types).

    More commonly, a detainee (in my case, suspected AIF's) will attempt to break an armlock, resulting in a dislocation at the shoulder.
    Last edited by Wood Dragon; 01-04-2007 at 01:02 AM.
    SevenStar: It's hilarious seeing people's reactions when they see a big, black dude with a sword walking toward them.

    Masterkiller: Especially when they're at the ATM.

    WTF? How did we go from the White Haired Devil strangling and beating guys to death in a teahouse, to Mr Miyagi and Jhoon Rhee?
    .

  4. #64
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    Most classical limb destructions focus on dislocation over fracture because A) you get a consistently reliable result (bone behaviour can be REALLY surprising) B) it is much more disabling, and C) you can train it safely and know the technique is working.
    I work in an emregency department, and I can assure you that yes indeed, bones break VERY easily. As I will guarantee that I've seen more broken bones and joint dislocations than the rest of you put together, trust me on this one.
    "The man who stands for nothing is likely to fall for anything"
    www.swindonkungfu.co.uk

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by lunghushan View Post
    Actually, no, at the time I wasn't giving him my arm. I was telling him that I thought what he was doing with a technique wouldn't work, so he said, Okay, Resist ... resisting actually made it worse
    I've experienced the same thing many times. Yes, I was resisting once the technique was put in place. But could that position be gained and that technique applied while I am striking with full intention.... usually, I would say an adaptation or a change to a different technique would be needed in almost every case.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Water Dragon View Post
    I showed a couple breaks from Shuai Chiao to some of the Judo guys. Pretty much everyone with 15 or more years experience knew them, none of the other guys did. One was a basic arm break, the other was a leg break. Not only does this stuff exist, it exists in multiple grappling arts.
    So much like Santa found out about he M&M's, they're real, they do exist!
    Sure they "exist".

    However, you won't see people being able to do them on purpose against a resisting and standing opponent like you will on the ground.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Gash View Post
    Most classical limb destructions focus on dislocation over fracture because A) you get a consistently reliable result (bone behaviour can be REALLY surprising) B) it is much more disabling, and C) you can train it safely and know the technique is working.
    I work in an emregency department, and I can assure you that yes indeed, bones break VERY easily. As I will guarantee that I've seen more broken bones and joint dislocations than the rest of you put together, trust me on this one.
    Of course you see a lot of breaks... you are seeing the results of all the crazy things people do like hurl themselves from roofs. Working in an ER will give you a skewed reality.

    Bones might be easy to break from falls from motorcycles, buildings, bikes, skateboards, etc... but they are very hard to break from a standing position with another human being trying to do the breaking.
    Last edited by Knifefighter; 01-04-2007 at 09:42 AM.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Pina View Post
    I've experienced the same thing many times. Yes, I was resisting once the technique was put in place. But could that position be gained and that technique applied while I am striking with full intention.... usually, I would say an adaptation or a change to a different technique would be needed in almost every case.
    Exactly... of course the break can be finished once the lock is in place, regardless of resistance. Getting to that position is the reason they are so rare from a standing position.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by msg View Post
    i dont think its that hard to break an arm standing or on the ground when i was traning kuntao/silat a lot of things we did was to break everything you touch . and bones are not that hard
    Ah, yes, the Silat crowd... just as,or maybe even more, delusional than the kung fu crowd.

  10. #70
    KF always manages to make me smile. <3 to him.

  11. #71
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    You really make me laugh Knifefighter. What's becoming increasingly apparent when I read these threads is that many submission guys are just as delusional as many kung fu guys, just about different things. People have their arms, legs, skulls, necks, ribs, sternums etc broken, people are killed by single punches, people are KTFOd as they shoot in EVERY DAY BY COMPLETELY UNTRAINED OPPONENTS. The delusion of many kung fu guys is they fail to appreciate how dangerous groundgrappling could be, but equally many submission guys appear to completely underestimate the dangers posed by striking, thinking they'll see and anticipate every strike and be able to react appropriately. "I'll close in and take them down before they get a chance to hit me" is every bit as delusional as "they'll be seriously ****ed up by the time they get close enough to try and take me down".
    The truth is that if you engage in combat then you are risking death and serious injury. Training is effectively just playing the numbers to your favour. If you believe that no-one could ever hit you, or no-one could ever take you down, you're living in a dangerous fantasy world and will sadly find yourself bleeding to death in an alley somewhere.
    "The man who stands for nothing is likely to fall for anything"
    www.swindonkungfu.co.uk

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Gash View Post
    The truth is that if you engage in combat then you are risking death and serious injury. Training is effectively just playing the numbers to your favour. If you believe that no-one could ever hit you, or no-one could ever take you down, you're living in a dangerous fantasy world and will sadly find yourself bleeding to death in an alley somewhere.
    LOL... since I regularly mix it up with other skilled, conditioned and resisting opponents in a variety of competitive settings, I think I have a pretty good idea of what can and cannot happen. Of course I can be hit or taken down... happens all the time to me and others. These things also can be trained so that one can make them happen on purpose as a regular occurance.

    However, there are some things, that while they CAN happen, are very rare occurances and almost always happen by accident. Standing arm breaks are one of these things.

    As I mentioned before, submission grappling tourneys allow any standing arm break that you can think of. How about one of you deadly kung fu (or silat) guys, who have all this history of breaking people's arms this way, entering one of those competitions and getting back to me with the video to prove me wrong?
    Last edited by Knifefighter; 01-04-2007 at 10:06 AM.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    However, there are some things, that while they CAN happen, are very rare occurances and almost always happen by accident. Standing arm breaks are one of these things.
    May have something to do with the fact that few people go around attempting to break other people's arms....

    The people who do practice limb-entanglement techniques (LEOs, Military, security, psych, etc) are focused on restraining the subject.
    SevenStar: It's hilarious seeing people's reactions when they see a big, black dude with a sword walking toward them.

    Masterkiller: Especially when they're at the ATM.

    WTF? How did we go from the White Haired Devil strangling and beating guys to death in a teahouse, to Mr Miyagi and Jhoon Rhee?
    .

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Wood Dragon View Post
    Strike them in the face (or other handy soft spot), as this tends to make uke more cooperative, then execute something on the order of a standing ude-hishigi-juji-gatame (Cross Armlock, for you uncultured Speedo types).

    More commonly, a detainee (in my case, suspected AIF's) will attempt to break an armlock, resulting in a dislocation at the shoulder.
    What job do you have that allows you to regularly break people's arms and dislocate their shoulders without getting fired?

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    As I mentioned before, submission grappling tourneys allow any standing arm break that you can think of. How about one of you deadly kung fu (or silat) guys, who have all this history of breaking people's arms this way, entering one of those competitions and getting back to me with the video to prove me wrong?

    And how often do arm breaks occur in ground fighting?

    Not all that often either.

    Dislocation (caused by uke attempting to manuever out of the lock) and elbow/wrist (cuased by too much force/torque being placed on the joint by tori) injuries, maybe.

    I'm guessing you do not compete much?
    SevenStar: It's hilarious seeing people's reactions when they see a big, black dude with a sword walking toward them.

    Masterkiller: Especially when they're at the ATM.

    WTF? How did we go from the White Haired Devil strangling and beating guys to death in a teahouse, to Mr Miyagi and Jhoon Rhee?
    .

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