The myth of the standing arm break...

[Knifefighter]

May have something to do with the fact that few people go around attempting to break other people's arms....

The people who do practice limb-entanglement techniques (LEOs, Military, security, psych, etc) are focused on restraining the subject.

Well, let's see then... who would have a more realistic perspective on whether or not it happens on purpose or, occasionally, by accident?

The people who never really attempt to do it on purpose because their job is just to restrain and control?

Or those of us who actually try to do it on a regular basis?

[Knifefighter]

And how often do arm breaks occur in ground fighting?

Not all that often either.

Dislocation (caused by uke attempting to manuever out of the lock) and elbow/wrist (cuased by too much force/torque being placed on the joint by tori) injuries, maybe.

I'm guessing you do not compete much?

LOL @ me not competing. I have had over 200 matches. I compete regularly.

Of course breaks don't occur that often on the ground... people tap before the break occurs.

[Wood Dragon]

What job do you have that allows you to regularly break people's arms and dislocate their shoulders without getting fired?

I don't do it regularly. It's happened a few times. Cost of doing business.


At the time I was a Rifle Platoon Leader (and, later, I lead a Weapons Platoon). Now, I'm a Company XO.

When you used a buzzsaw or sledge hammer to break peoples doors and then ransack their daughter's room looking for mortar rounds.....they can get a little excited (and Arabic culture does not produce many phlegmatic people, to begin with). Be rude to shoot them, hence the restraining holds. Sometimes, the result of forcing a restraining hold on a resistant subject is.......you guessed it, an arm break or shoulder dislocation. Other times, it was intentional, to neutralize a dangerous subject when they made their play for the upper hand.

[Wood Dragon]

LOL @ me not competing. I have had over 200 matches. I compete regularly.
.

The you know all that has been said, and are trolling.

[Knifefighter]

The you know all that has been said, and are trolling.

If debating with delusional people is trolling, then I guess so.

[Ben Gash]

Is your arm somehow less broken if it's done accidentally?
Why on earth would you want to enter a competition specifically to break the arm of another human being? That's not normal behaviour. People also tap standing up, so your last couple of counters have been complete nonsense.
Explain to me again why you come to a kung fu board to just talk trash about kung fu? The world and it's dog has lept up and said "BS, I've done it", which is fairly believable considering the numbers and mix here (I've never done it, I tend to work on the shoulder or wrist (or just wrestle) when I'm standing grappling, again my job would be somewhat upset if I started using a legally questionable technique on people, however I have used the hold for restraint effectively AND against a weapon), and you just accuse everyone of lying, you've also employed other troll-like activities such as ducking the main thrust to nit-pick a minor point in this thread.

[SifuAbel]

Stop feeding the attention whore..................

[Knifefighter]

however I have used the hold for restraint effectively AND against a weapon),

The "hold"?
I don't think a specific hold was being discussed here.
However, I am open to hearing the specific hold you are talking about.

[Fu-Pow]

i wonder when Richard Dawkins is going to write The Kung Fu Delusion book.

LOL! I just finished reading the God Delusion.

[WinterPalm]

Richard Dawkins also wrote something called the Selfish Gene or some title to that extent...the intro with his outline for that book is mostly garbage...I read the jacket for the God Delusion and although I agree with many points, trying to put logic onto supernatural belief that all people everywhere have in one or another form, is just stupid.
I'd put him with Chariots of the Gods author and many other sensationalistic pseudo-scientific nonsense.

I think we should all bow to Knifefighter because he knows everything.

[FatherDog]

Standing arm breaks are very possible.

The problem is that it is next to impossible to fully control someone's body standing, without a wall or a floor to pin them against. This means that inherently, their body is free to move away from the force you are applying to the joint, nullifying it. This is why a standing wakigatame (for example) is an excellent "come along" technique for a bouncer to escort someone out the door, but using it to actually break the arm usually results in your opponent spinning around away from your force.

In order for a standing arm break to work, you must be applying the force faster than your opponent can move away from it, something that they will instinctively (ie, even if they are not trained) do to relieve the pressure. Therefore, standing arm breaks typically work only if you are either significantly faster than your opponent, or catch them by surprise.

Since in a streetfight situation, you cannot rely on either of the above being true, I consider standing arm-breaks not to be a worthwhile use of training time.

I would think that CMA guys, who put such an emphasis on training techniques that you can still use as an old man, wouldn't be so high on techniques dependent on speed, which is one of the first things to deteriorate with age.

[Mas Judt]

Father Dog, you've left out when you've stolen the other persons balance or position. That's what makes it functional. Otherwise it is easy, especially for a very strong person to escape.

[Knifefighter]

Is your arm somehow less broken if it's done accidentally?.

No, but it should affect how one approaches training.

That's not normal behaviour. People also tap standing up, so your last couple of counters have been complete nonsense.

Really?
From a standing arm lock?
Point me to some examples.

[Flying-Monkey]

Richard Dawkins also wrote something called the Selfish Gene or some title to that extent...the intro with his outline for that book is mostly garbage...I read the jacket for the God Delusion and although I agree with many points, trying to put logic onto supernatural belief that all people everywhere have in one or another form, is just stupid.
I'd put him with Chariots of the Gods author and many other sensationalistic pseudo-scientific nonsense.

I think we should all bow to Knifefighter because he knows everything.

You don't fully understand Dawkins.

[FatherDog]

Father Dog, you've left out when you've stolen the other persons balance or position. That's what makes it functional. Otherwise it is easy, especially for a very strong person to escape.

Give an example, please.