Myth of the CMA forum

[The Xia]

Xia, use paragraphs for crying out loud!

Thanks for the tip Chief. I'll keep that in mind for next time. How'd you like the content?

The UFC was the first venue to make all ranges of fighting available for everyone to see.

All ranges of fighting? Not even close. You forgot multiple opponants, weapons (both improvised and non-improvised), and don't forget that many techniques aren't allowed.

And that is the small subset that can actually fight.

People do TMA for many reasons. Some do it for health, fun, etc. However, those that take it seriously get all that and learn how to fight. So serious practitioners learn how to fight. Period.

The whole training for the street thing is where all the B.S starts.

Get rid of the training for the street B.S.

However, let's leave room for the possiblity that "training for the street" is actually not B.S.
Describe how one would train that in his real kung fu training.

Techniques are like bullets and the tools to apply them are like guns. You can have all the high caliber rounds you want but if you don't have a gun that can shoot them then they're useless when you need them. Another words, in order to be able to use something like the aforementioned panther fist, you have to understand the technique and undergo proper conditioning and drilling.

[Knifefighter]

All ranges of fighting? Not even close. You forgot multiple opponants, weapons (both improvised and non-improvised), and don't forget that many techniques aren't allowed.

In the first three UFC's all technqiues except for eye gouging and biting were allowed, although eye gouges still happened.

Ranges = outside striking range; inside clinch/striking/takedown range; groundfighting range.
Weapons and multiple opponents are not ranges.

As far as multiple opponents and weapons, groups like the Dog Brothers have taken the MMA model and added to it to include these things... what they are doing is pretty much still MMA.

Some do it for health, fun, etc. However, those that take it seriously get all that and learn how to fight. So serious practitioners learn how to fight. Period.

Not sure what you mean by "serious".

Another words, in order to be able to use something like the aforementioned panther fist, you have to understand the technique and undergo proper conditioning and drilling.

... and full contact sparring.

[The Xia]

And B.S. is very traditional in the Chinese martial arts. Just take a small glance at our extant literature. You can find authors calling B.S. on TCMA going back centuries. I think the real problem is that the West thinks there shouldn't be B.S. in the martial arts. That's what puts most westerners up B.S. creek without a paddle. What amazes me is that few people see the B.S. in MMA. That's kind of funny. Any industry with that much moolah behind it has their fair share of B.S. Think about it.

There's nothing wrong with B.S. Like cyberbullies and trolls, B.S. is just a fact of life. Now it's exacerbated by modern mediums like web forums. You learn to cope with it. The real problem is that some people get personally offended by B.S. I think that's the ego - that's people saying "there's no B.S. in my life. I'm too good for B.S. My B.S. don't stink." Sure, those dogmatic B.S. followers are bothersome, but calling them names isn't going to help. There are better ways to reduce B.S. When there's too much B.S. some people yell and scream "B.S! B.S!!!" Others get some toilet paper.

Of course B.S. accompanying martial arts is nothing new. A researcher like you would know this better then most. Then you also may know that back in old China the B.S.ers had to watch themselves more so the number is reduced. It also makes you think that the B.S.ers back then were probably more clever then they are today since they were taking a bigger risk. However, who remembers those B.S.ers? Can anyone even name one? Wong Fei Hung, Sun Lu Tang, Wang Lang, Dong Hai Chuan, etc are all remembered. Who remembers the B.S.ers? They've faded into obscurity. The ones of today will likely do the same. However, I still believe that there is probably more B.S. today then in the past due to the violence that occured back then.
I wouldn't call the B.S. traditional martial arts. Martial means pertaining to war (or we can take it to mean combat in general in this case). So martial arts are arts of combat (in our case both armed and unarmed). Traditional means that they aren't anything new. So B.S., being that it isn't a combat art, cannot be called a martial art. I guess you can call it a con art though. Or if you want to turn it into a euphemism you can call it an art of deception. You like that one Gene?

So if you want less of a chance of offending anyone, you can call the next B.S.er you see a true master in the arts of deception. It almost sounds like a ninja!

[The Xia]

In the first three UFC's all technqiues except for eye gouging and biting were allowed, although eye gouges still happened.

Ranges = outside striking range; inside clinch/striking/takedown range; groundfighting range.
Weapons and multiple opponents are not ranges.

As far as multiple opponents and weapons, groups like the Dog Brothers have taken the MMA model and added to it to include these things... what they are doing is pretty much still MMA.

I guess it depends on what you define as a range of fighting. It doesn't really matter though, the UFC isn't the first realistic venue the world has ever seen. Check out the full-contact, bare knuckle tournaments that Chan Sau Cheung's fighters competed in. Not to mention the real fighting that happened on the streets throughout MA history. As far as I know about the Dog Brothers events, I thought they did FMA, not MMA.

Not sure what you mean by "serious".

Someone that takes it seriously and wants to really learn his/her chosen martial art(s). Not someone who is only interested in getting a bit or a workout or having something to do on Friday nights, etc.

... and full contact sparring.

I don't deny the usefulness of full-contact sparring.

[Knifefighter]

Check out the full-contact, bare knuckle tournaments that Chan Sau Cheung's fighters competed in.

I'm pretty sure those tourneys didn't have ground fighting.

BTW,
What is your training background and where do you get your information on CMA?

[hung-le]

There's nothing wrong with B.S. Like cyberbullies and trolls, B.S. is just a fact of life. Now it's exacerbated by modern mediums like web forums. You learn to cope with it. .

You learn to cope with it?...Nothing wrong with cyberbullies and trolls?

Your acting like there is free speech on the internet…… If I were your boss you would have been laterally moved long ago….

Correct me if I’m wrong, but this web site is designed to promote the magazine you work for…

A magazine the promotes (mainly…traditional Chinese martial arts)

Have I got that right?

How is letting a group that doesn’t represent anything that your magazine does, except maybe sport fighting…. take over and highjack the main forum….

These guys haven’t come on and posted once or twice…or even ten times....there posts are up in the thousands!

It’s the same crap over and over and over on this forum for about two years now…

Hence…………….” MODERATION”………….



I’m talking economics; I’m talking Business 101…who’s more likely to buy your magazine? Keep you employed…and keep food on your table…..A guy who comes here and talks TMA or a guy who comes here just to shag the guy who talks TMA

The answer is obvious…

Who's your Boss? I'm wondering if he feels that same as you? (in reference too how you promote your magizine on the internet?)


To whomever else is reading this…

I’m not shagging sport fighting nor am I advocating no one should talk about it. What I am saying is … when you got guys with thousands of posts (generated from multiple years of coming here) doing nothing but crapping on what this magazine promotes…the course of action should have been obvious years ago......there are other websites designed to talk about sport fighting….

[Ray Pina]

The truth of the matter is MMA doesn't care about CMA.... no how many times I've heard the word "kung fu" while training at Renzo Gracies the past 5 months? .... ZERO times!

The gym hosts world-class fighters who are winning at the highest level of competition (Master Renzo, George St. Pierre, etc., etc). Do you honestly think anyone of them care about snake or monkey kung fu?

If anything it is the other way, kung fu guys explaining how they'd destroy these world class fighters if only they could get their hands on the outside of the ring.

Everyone involved -- the MMA stylist, the CMA person writing it and the CMA guy reading it -- know it isn't true. They know the person has never fully fought and wouldn't... never mind against a very skilled and experienced pro fighter.

I don't think this is news. I just think it's an unwelcomed reality.

Accept it or change the reality by changing the way you train and then go do something.

[hung-le]

Ray….. I totally agree with you (fighting is fighting and where you train, guys are learning to fight.) Style is not the issue…we all know this….

What I’m talking about is akin to Ford Motor Company setting up a web site that promotes “Ford Racing.”

Along come a group of guys who set up camp (I.e. post everyday …for years) do nothing but shag Ford products and promote GM Racing.

How long do you think that would last?

If anything its about business…(who’s paying for this web site?)

[Knifefighter]

Your acting like there is free speech on the internet…… If I were your boss you would have been laterally moved long ago….

Correct me if I’m wrong, but this web site is designed to promote the magazine you work for…

Many websites are set up so that they benefit based on the number of hits they recieve. If this site is set up this way, controversy is a great thing and those of us who stir the pot are potentially very beneficial. If this site is not set up this way, it should be.

[Knifefighter]

How long do you think that would last?
If anything its about business…(who’s paying for this web site?)

Hopefully, the advertisers are at least subsidizing the site. They are most concerned about how many people are visiting, how many hits the site receives and, ultimately, how many people are reading their ads and buying their products and services.

Hmmm... maybe the advertising sales guys should look into having MMA advertising here. They already do it in the magazine.

[Knifefighter]

The truth of the matter is MMA doesn't care about CMA.... no how many times I've heard the word "kung fu" while training at Renzo Gracies the past 5 months? .... ZERO times!
The gym hosts world-class fighters who are winning at the highest level of competition (Master Renzo, George St. Pierre, etc., etc). Do you honestly think anyone of them care about snake or monkey kung fu?
If anything it is the other way, kung fu guys explaining how they'd destroy these world class fighters if only they could get their hands on the outside of the ring.

Exactly...
I often check out other MA sessions without ever mentioning that I train. Without exception, the TMA guys ALWAYS relate what they are doing to MMA (usually talking about how what they do is much more realistic than what those UFC guys do)... I never initiate this conversation but they always begin it.

[Ray Pina]

Now, I'm fairly confidant if needed I could shoot someone. But by MMA standards that's not enough. Apparently I have to practice 'live' and actually shoot someone to 'know' I can do it (and you still never know for sure because each situation is different).

You are absolutely right!

Pulling off a "kung fu" move against a willing classmate is similiar to shooting a target at leisure.

Fighting a skilled fighter who is fighting back is like being in a shoot out... their are consequences and pressure.

These are different scenarios. Which is why the weekend skeet shooter is often a fat slob and a Navy Seal is a well conditioned warrior. This is also why your average CMA player is soft and lacks the inner agression needed to win in a hand to hand confrontation while a fighter loves it.

Again, this is no secret.

[Ray Pina]

Ray….. I totally agree with you (fighting is fighting and where you train, guys are learning to fight.) Style is not the issue…we all know this….

What I’m talking about is akin to Ford Motor Company setting up a web site that promotes “Ford Racing.”

Along come a group of guys who set up camp (I.e. post everyday …for years) do nothing but shag Ford products and promote GM Racing.

How long do you think that would last?

If anything its about business…(who’s paying for this web site?)

If Ford Motor Company had cars and drivers that were out there driving well on a regular basis they wouldn't feel the need to defend themselves against outside attacks. They would know they're involved in a very competitve endever and people will win and people will lose and people will talk but they're doing it the best they can. Win and lose.

This is different than setting up a martial art website devoted to a style that, let's be honest, hasn't proven effective in creating martial artists... people who can do form: yes! ... people who can do esoteric exercise: yes!. But people who can compete in hand-to-hand combat with their contemporary counterparts .... no way!

The problem is this group feeds itself the belief that they are doing something ancient and they must keep it that way. The fact of the matter is, these people are not training like warriors of old China. They are training like opera players of old China and have similiar skills and folklore. This is not martial arts.

It's up to the members here whether or not they are going to fix their engine, get in and drive fast and dangerously. They are stating to be racing car drivers.... I want to see cars... I want to see high speed laps.... the occasional crash. Evidence that what is being said is.

I haven't seen it here from a CMA standpoint. Have you?

[Ray Pina]

Exactly...
I often check out other MA sessions without ever mentioning that I train. Without exception, the TMA guys ALWAYS relate what they are doing to MMA (usually talking about how what they do is much more realistic than what those UFC guys do)... I never initiate this conversation but they always begin it.

Oh I know I've been involved in the CMA world, the NYC Chinatown thing, for some time now. This eventually drove me out.

Not only were they better than everyone else... not only was MMA stupid sport or fixed... but when I went out to try to compare I was then told I was dumb, low level, shouldn't go represent, etc., etc., etc..... of course none of these people would compare with me.

Truth me told, I was low level. And truth further be told, compare me to a pro MMA fighter I still am. Those guys bring a level of war that you have to be in it everyday -- eat, sleep and **** your training --- to be at that level.

Just until recently (had two cysts removed) I was training very near that level and realised, "I'm getting pretty good but still get submitted.... can still get my face broken."

I realised that no matter how good I get there's always someone younger, stronger, hungrier.... it will always be that way. So know I have found solace in just training for training's sake and the by product is I have a six pack for the first time in my life. I know how to eat now. I know about my body. And I can **** up a Puerto Rican if he gives me hell in the line up when I paddle out in 3 weeks.

That's it. Seeing things as they are and knowing one's place.

[GeneChing]

The Xia: It's hard to say if there's more B.S. today, but my inclination is to agree with you. There's certainly more noise, and less challenge matches, both would seem to foster B.S. But at the same time, we don't have traveling jianghu like the daze of old, and many of them were clearly full of B.S. Anyway, you've been on this forum long enough to know my soft spot for ninjettes.

hung-le: Our focus at the magazine is CMA, but it would be a grievous error for us to ignore the MMA phenomena. In all honesty, that's where the most money is in the martial arts now, not in terms of selling product (although many of the other mags have gone very deeply into MMA to increase their newsstand sales). The real money in MMA is promotion as entertainment. More people pay to see it than do it. Unfortunately that's not our business or I'd be driving a new car.

That being said, there's no way I'm going to ban people for talking up MMA. That's just absurd. The MMA vs. CMA debate is very relevant to KungFuMagazine and Kung Fu Tai Chi. The only real problem is that most of the people debating are nitwits and haven't advanced the argument very much beyond more derogatory remarks, which is really too bad because there's a lot more intelligent discussion that could be made.

I'm sorry that you feel cyberbullied by the MMA crowd, but remember, it takes two to tango, especially in a flame war. If it really bothers you, try implementing the ignore function.