I'm in my teacher's new Lian Bu Quan DVD!

[Hau Tien]

I was recently asked to help Mr. Rovere out with his new DVD (Secret Fighting Skills of the Chinese Military: Lesson 1) and thought I'd post a link to a short video clip from it (you can watch Mr. Rovere kick and punch me and another training partner around a bunch :P I'm the "lucky" guy up first who gets it in the groin. It's ok, I don't want kids. :P )

Link to the clip is here: http://www.rovere.com/movie/lssn1.m1v
More info on the video (and Mr. Rovere, of course) is available at http://www.rovere.com/videos.html#lbc

Cheers!

[Ravenshaw]

I've read some articles by your teacher in the past. I'd be very interested in learning more about the military aspect of Lin Bo (see my recently-resurrected topic in the Shaolin forum). The applications themselves don't look bad, but something about the way he does them... he's purposefully breaking it down to demonstrate? It suffers from the attacker who throws one half-hearted punch and then stands there while the teacher has fun.

[Hau Tien]

I've read some articles by your teacher in the past. I'd be very interested in learning more about the military aspect of Lin Bo (see my recently-resurrected topic in the Shaolin forum). The applications themselves don't look bad, but something about the way he does them... he's purposefully breaking it down to demonstrate? It suffers from the attacker who throws one half-hearted punch and then stands there while the teacher has fun.

From the second link above:

Lesson 1: Training overview.
Authentic WWII Chinese commando combatives. Overview of forging post training; two man conditioning exercises; form demonstrations; <b>combat applications from the form</b>.

It's showing specific applications from the form. Obviously one wouldn't consider that "full speed or intent". (for which I am eternally thankful)

[YouKnowWho]

Why it's called "Lian Bu Quan"?

[Ravenshaw]

I'll give it a shot...

lian/lin - continuous or linked
bu/bo - step, stance, footwork
chuan/kuen - literally fist, but in this context refers to a martial arts set

So, we could call it the "continuous stepping form" or, more loosely, "practice footwork." As the name implies, we use it in BSL as an introductory set to practice smooth footwork and the coordination of feet, body, and hands. Basically, practicing using the footwork to drive the various techniques. I hear it was adopted by the Chinese military at some point because it's simple and they could use it to teach some basic techniques.

Here's Gene's thread on the movement names, and here's a thread about it's history.

Edit: Heh. Gene's lyric thread lists the same translation I had above. Cool.

[lkfmdc]

I'm shocked by the crass commercialism of this post, selling a product!

I am going to start a poll condeming this post

Then I'm going to get all upset and leave the forum

(none of the above are true, I'm being sarcastic)

TTT..... Mr Rovere does good stuff

[YouKnowWho]

lian/lin - continuous or linked
bu/bo - step, stance, footwork
chuan/kuen - literally fist, but in this context refers to a martial arts set.

Thanks for the explanation. What's the relationship between this DVD and Lian Bu Chuan? Does this DVD show the application in Lian Bu Chuan?

[Ravenshaw]

Thanks for the explanation. What's the relationship between this DVD and Lian Bu Chuan? Does this DVD show the application in Lian Bu Chuan?

No idea. That's a question for the OP. Though it might be interesting to get this video and compare it with my teacher's DVD of the same set. That one is more about the choreography and a little on application, whereas Rovere's point of view is analyzing military training techniques.

Then one could bring Yang Jwing Ming's version into the study for yet another perspective.

[YouKnowWho]

Your teacher's Lian Bu Chuan is very sharp and smooth.

I think the difference between your teacher's form and Dr. Yang's form was at the end of that form, Dr. Yang's teacher's teacher GM Han Chin-Tang changed the 2nd double palms striking into a right reverse horizontal punch.

[img=http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/7468/lianbuchuanur4.th.jpg]

[Hau Tien]

I'm shocked by the crass commercialism of this post, selling a product!

I am going to start a poll condeming this post

Then I'm going to get all upset and leave the forum

(none of the above are true, I'm being sarcastic)

TTT..... Mr Rovere does good stuff

hahah... I suppose it is a wee bit of a commercial post... but I was mainly excited at being in the new DVD

I've passed on questions and comments to Mr. Rovere (and he does read the threads every once in a while). He can certainly answer them better than I can in regards to LBQ as a form.

Cheers!

Scott/Hau Tien

[Knifefighter]

Here are the problems with the techniques shown on that clip.

- Punching someone in the hand when they attack you with a knife.
That and those follow up techniques against the knife will more than likely get you gutted even if the knife guy doesn't know what he is doing.

- Dropping both hands down into the opponent's knee when he brings it up compeletly opens up one's head and face.

- The chopping backhands will do nothing unless you are twice as big as your opponent.


Somehow, I doubt you guys are sparring this stuff full contact.

Wearing combat fatigue pants does not make it a combat style.

[lkfmdc]

Here are the problems with the techniques shown on that clip.

I'm not going to debate your points KF, you're probably right on the money with most (well, I KNOW you are right about the double hand blocking the knee thing) but for what it is worth, I'd give Revere a little room and some respect.

A lot of what he is doing is preserving various historical methods. The use of Lien Bo Quan to train Chinese military forces is a historical fact, and here he's reproducing that curriculum. Not everything I've seen in historical fencing or Western combat books is "state of the art" or even practical, but we preserve that stuff because it's history

Revere also studied and trained with the "Gung Ahn" or the Chinese equivalent of the SWAT team.... tough guys who use their skills every day. I"m sure, know for a fact, that Revere has a lot of stuff to offer the world, don't jump on him too hard

[Knifefighter]

A lot of what he is doing is preserving various historical methods. The use of Lien Bo Quan to train Chinese military forces is a historical fact, and here he's reproducing that curriculum.
Not everything I've seen in historical fencing or Western combat books is "state of the art" or even practical, but we preserve that stuff because it's history

He is calling it "Secret Fighting Skills of the Chinese Military". He is not calling it "Historical Techniques of the Chinese Military".

The first title implies that one is going to learn secret techniques that will make a person a good fighter. Going by what is shown on that clip, one will not only probably not become a good fighter, but he will probably increase his chances of getting killed if he is attacked with a blade or someone who has half a clue about how to fight with knees in the clinch.

Revere also studied and trained with the "Gung Ahn" or the Chinese equivalent of the SWAT team.... tough guys who use their skills every day. I"m sure, know for a fact, that Revere has a lot of stuff to offer the world, don't jump on him too hard

He was a police officer? Was he on the SWAT team? Or was it that he occassionally worked out with some guys who were on the SWAT team?

[GeneChing]

I wonder why, Ravenshaw, I wonder why...

I've been getting into LBK again lately. I used to by bored by it because it was so rudimentary, but I've been enjoying sprinkling some xingyi energy into it. Plus I learned a basic jingang form a while ago, a preparatory form for mizong, which worked the Grabbing hand, hammer strike technique, so I got to thinking about it again.

lkfmdc, I like your comment about preserving history. I'd add that in fencing, the modern sport has changed dramatically. For example, and few fencers still understand this, historic fencing took into consideration the angle of the blade. Since most people were fencing with blades that were essentially a flattened-diamond cross section, the angle of the blade - flat vs. edge - had a dramatic effect on the physics of your application, not only in blade on blade actions, but also simple ideas like penetration of the rib cage. Of course, this has all been discarded in the modern game. I suppose you could propound the same argument for traditional hand combat, although that might be more challenging and it'll surely lead to the ol' 'my techniques are too deadly for MMA' nonsense.

[rovere]

Hau tien sent me an e-mail and suggested I should jump in and at least respond to the comments.

First of all let me say, all I am presenting is historical 'stuff' relating to my interest in "military combatives" or whatever you want to classify it as. The LBQ was used at Changsha as part of the 3 stage close combat training of the commandos. (My teachers wife, a major in the chinese army taught with WLS and was also a sentior student of Du shen Wu.) So pants aside, there is historical basis to what is being presented.

With regards to punching or striking the back of the hand, I have actually used that technique in a confrontation and broke the attacker's hand -- quite easy to do- especially with a folded hand and striking with the knuckles --whipping action. Also not much hand-eye co-ordination needed. (BTW I didn't get gutted.)

The double hand block for the knee strike actually turns the opponent sideways and off balance. As the person grabs the neck and tries to knee you; push down hard and turn his knee sideways as opposed to simply blocking.

The chest strike you see is actually to the throat -- of course you wouldn't know that since I didn't bother to include the voice over explanation to accompany it. because I have only a few students, I didn't think it prudent to go around hitting them full out in the throat -- you can run out of "attackers" quickly and have no one left to train with.

Hope this addresses some of your concerns/criticisms.