Newbie Questions

[hinokata]

First off, thank you for taking the time to read the sections below. If you have a productive answer or some useful knowledge that you would care to share, please do so. The purpose of this post is to gather information from people whom have far more knowledge than I do on the subject. I would hate to not train with this person if it is a case of my lack of knowledge and prejudice preventing me from taking a wonderful opertunity. I have tried to be open minded in my sections labeled (counter), but IMHO, one can never be truly open minded, as experience and prejudice will always influence your mind to some degree.

Brief History:
- About 22 years total in martial arts training. Ninjutsu, Karate, Jujitsu and Aikido being the most training/heaviest influences. As you can see, mostly Japanese, traditional arts. (Yes I know you're screaming karate is Japanese, you dummy!, but I have a reason to say that this form is not quite Japanese )

Tonight:
I have to say the gentleman was very nice, and very knowledgeable in a scholarly fashion. He seemed to know all about meridians, chi, histories, etc. I have only the books I have purchased to go by regarding these arts however, so my knowledge is limited at best.

My Concerns:
1. After showing me a form that was fairly quick (for the sake of demo purposes), he was slightly winded.

(counter) - I don't really have one for this. Possible bad judgment on my part of his breathing techniques? (Granted, I personally think this is a long stretch)

2. I told him that I had a question for him, and in all honesty it was a trick question. He told me to go ahead and ask, so I asked him to apply a Chin Na technique to either my arm, upper body, or fingers if he could. He attempted 4-5 times and I *very* easily countered them. I almost put him in a finger lock (habit) but caught myself. I then consiously resisted the urge to defend myself and he still could not apply the technique to the point where I could feel any pain.

(counter) I am *very* flexible in my upper body and extremities. I also have a huge pain tolerance, and generally (most)pressure points do not work on me. Some of that is due to training, and partly due to nerve damage. An additional aspect is that perhaps I have a complete misunderstanding of Chin Na in the first place. I DO understand that ever hold has a counter, etc, but my personal opinion is that should I, coming from a vastly different style be able to counter all of his techniques so easily? My understanding is that "Chin Na" means "to seize and control", yet he was unable to do either.

3. He seems to focus much more on the spiritual/meditation aspects than the martial ones.

(counter) This could be that the concepts in Internal CMA are so different that I am unable to recognize the benefits down the road after years of training. I would like to point out that JMA is NOT without it's use of chi(ki) and usages, so it's not exactly a foreign concept to me.

4. He said there is an Orthadox 37 form type of taijiquan, which according to my books, there is only 24, 48, and 108 posture forms.

(counter) This could very well be my lack of knowledge of CMA in general or that I misread something.

Tonight's Lessons:
I would like to point out that I am not disagreeing with the following statements, but my training has always taught me this is body dynamics and has very little to do with chi.

1. He stated that and standard horse stance allows an equal amount of Yin and Yang chi to circulate throughout the body.

2. Open Horse stance - Chi flows downward into the ground providing you with better stability.

3. Closed Horse Stance - Chi flows up from the ground and into your fists, allowing harder/faster strikes, but at the cost of stability.

4. I was started with the "Hub and Spoke Qigong" drills, is that a normal starting step?

Again, in case anything I said above is misinterpreted, I have NOTHING against CMA, I am NOT looking for a style ****ing match, but I AM looking for useful and knowledgable information that will help on my path to learning Taijiquan.

Thank you again for you time, and any useful input that you can provide.

[bamboo_ leaf]

It would seem that you really are just looking to validate what you know. After 22yrs in something how is it that you don’t understand what didn’t find.

[hinokata]

It would seem that you really are just looking to validate what you know.

In a way, yes. But more importantly, I am trying to make sure that it's not something that I *think* I know when in reality it is just something that I do not understand, hence why I asked for advice from people who know more than I.

After 22yrs in something how is it that you don’t understand what didn’t find.

Because I have 0 years experience in CMA which is very different from what I do know. If I were looking for a JMA school, I wouldn't need advice.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi hinokata,

It isn’t surprising that you were able to counter the china na techniques. If you have a good foundation and understanding of the basic principles of Aikido you should be able to counter chin na techniques. However, it is better to allow the teacher to demonstrate his techniques without too much resistance from you. You will not learn or understand his method of application if you do not allow him to apply them.

Just because he cannot apply the technique on you does not mean you or he could not apply it on another person. There is a difference between a learning/teaching circumstance and a practical application. Many techniques if applied with concentrated effort on a resisting opponent will cause injury, so I would not necessarily discount a technique’s efficacy or the instructor’s ability to apply it just because you are able to counter the technique. There is no chin na/Aikido technique that cannot be countered; every technique has a weakness.

I have had many students who chose to mess up the technique I am attempting to demonstrate for them and/or the class. If I force the technique to make my point the student may become injured and get upset. If I hurt them they do not understand that it was their own poor attitude the brought on the consequence. Therefore, when a student attempts to mess with the technique I am demonstrating I simply move to another technique that takes advantage of their resistance in a manner that assists the new technique. When they get upset I scold them by telling them they got what they asked for when they chose to interfere with my demonstration. I teach them to first learn the technique without resistance. After the technique has been learned and can be applied with a certain competence, THEN mess with your opponent in order to learn the technique’s limitations and what to do to counter resistance during of the application.

Your instructor’s focus on the spiritual aspects is not necessarily the attitude of all other instructors in that art. It is a highly individual decision influenced by the history of the school branch the instructor teaches, the instructor’s personality, personal goals, and the experience he has. Many, if not most, Tai Chi practitioners tend to focus on the spiritual or health aspects of Tai Chi just as many Aikido practitioners and some branches of Aikido focus on the spiritual aspects of Aikido. But some instructors and school branches also focus on the martial aspects just as some Aikido branches (Yoshinkan) focus on the more practical martial aspects of their art.

I personally agree with you concerning the horse stance comments. It is body mechanics that provides the effects that result. However, you may consider the comments about Chi as just another manner of explaining/describing the same phenomenon. “When your weight is balanced, your stance is stable”, is merely another way of saying, “When your Yin and Yang are balanced, your stance is harmonious.” If I say, “When you push off the ground with your rear foot and transfer the force up through your body in a wave like motion to the impact zone of your fist, you will generate greater force”, it is the same as saying, “A stance in harmony with Yin and Yang allows the Chi to flow from the ground, through your rear foot, through your body, and out your hand, increasing your impact force.”

It is merely a different manner of expressing the same principles, but according to a different traditional perspective.

[hinokata]

Hi hinokata,
It isn’t surprising that you were able to counter the china na techniques. If you have a good foundation and understanding of the basic principles of Aikido you should be able to counter chin na techniques.

That is good to know. I think in retrospect that I had unrealistic expectations of Chin Na influenced by ignorance and too many Kung Fu movies.

However, it is better to allow the teacher to demonstrate his techniques without too much resistance from you. You will not learn or understand his method of application if you do not allow him to apply them.

I was not clear enough in the initial description. This was not a case where he was going to teach me a Chin Na technique, it was a case where I was supposed to counter it. I understand that it is of little to no learning value if I activly resist while he is trying to teach me something. I personally also view it as a bit disrespectful.

Just because he cannot apply the technique on you does not mean you or he could not apply it on another person. There is a difference between a learning/teaching circumstance and a practical application.

Of this I am very aware.

Many techniques if applied with concentrated effort on a resisting opponent will cause injury, so I would not necessarily discount a technique’s efficacy or the instructor’s ability to apply it just because you are able to counter the technique.

Again, I understand this, although it is good to point it out.

There is no chin na/Aikido technique that cannot be countered; every technique has a weakness.

I would go so far as to say there is no technique from any style that can not be countered, not just limit it to Chin Na/Aikido.

I have had many students who chose to mess up the technique I am attempting to demonstrate for them and/or the class. If I force the technique to make my point the student may become injured and get upset. If I hurt them they do not understand that it was their own poor attitude the brought on the consequence. Therefore, when a student attempts to mess with the technique I am demonstrating I simply move to another technique that takes advantage of their resistance in a manner that assists the new technique. When they get upset I scold them by telling them they got what they asked for when they chose to interfere with my demonstration. I teach them to first learn the technique without resistance. After the technique has been learned and can be applied with a certain competence, THEN mess with your opponent in order to learn the technique’s limitations and what to do to counter resistance during of the application.

That is a great teaching method, and I have to admit that it has been used on me quite a few times in the past. The point of this particular Chin Na exercise is that I was under the faulty impresion that Chin Na would be in some shape or form superior to my previous grappling training. Now I understand that it is simple a different path up the same mountain.

Your instructor’s focus on the spiritual aspects is not necessarily the attitude of all other instructors in that art. It is a highly individual decision influenced by the history of the school branch the instructor teaches, the instructor’s personality, personal goals, and the experience he has. Many, if not most, Tai Chi practitioners tend to focus on the spiritual or health aspects of Tai Chi just as many Aikido practitioners and some branches of Aikido focus on the spiritual aspects of Aikido.

This is a very good point. I originally posted this because I was not sure if it was case where he focuses of the spiritual aspects, or it was a case of I'm just too much of a beginner to see down the path the teacher is trying to take me. I think that I may need to re-evaluate what exactly I think the internal arts should be, as opposed to what they actually are.

But some instructors and school branches also focus on the martial aspects just as some Aikido branches (Yoshinkan) focus on the more practical martial aspects of their art.

That is a very good point. I've met many people under the false impression that Aikido is simply a "tree hugger" type of spiritual awareness, where no one gets harmed, etc.

I personally agree with you concerning the horse stance comments. It is body mechanics that provides the effects that result. However, you may consider the comments about Chi as just another manner of explaining/describing the same phenomenon. “When your weight is balanced, your stance is stable”, is merely another way of saying, “When your Yin and Yang are balanced, your stance is harmonious.” If I say, “When you push off the ground with your rear foot and transfer the force up through your body in a wave like motion to the impact zone of your fist, you will generate greater force”, it is the same as saying, “A stance in harmony with Yin and Yang allows the Chi to flow from the ground, through your rear foot, through your body, and out your hand, increasing your impact force.”

This is one thing that I was really not sure of. Now an additional question I have, is that will furture lessons in CMA explain body dynamics using chi as opposed to body dynamics? I JMA, body dynamics and ki are often times seperated to a point. It's always there, but you do not learn to manipulate it till you have progressed a ways. For example, if we took the horse stance above, when you begin they tell you it help maintain your balance evenly. More advanced, your body dynamics allow for a more solid stance. Advanced, now that you have the body dynamics down, focus your ki into the ground as if they were roots to gain additional stability. From this example, you can see that the ki and the body dynamics work together, but are different. Another example is Aikido's "immovable arm".

It is merely a different manner of expressing the same principles, but according to a different traditional perspective.

I would like to thank you very much for this very informative post as well as taking the time to read and respond to newbie's questions, I appreciate it.

[NewToChen]

I don't really know what makes a good tai chi teacher, but I do have alot of experience(through my job of trying to mediate the esuing disputes) of business deals gone bad.

It is astounding how often I hear litanies of questions and misgivings that people felt before a given deal, and they go ahead anyway. In many cases, exactly what they feared would happen and be a problem happens, and is a problem. Not always, but enough that it forms a distinct and regular pattern in my experience. The ones who walk away from deals that give them the heebeejeebees don't have to call me, the ones who don't do.

The guy could be objectively the best teacher in the world, if he gives you the heebeejeebees, walk and find a teacher that doesn't.


That is also good advice when buying a car.

[Songwind]

I have to agree with the earlier reply that 22 years of experience including aikido should make you quite a handful for anyone trying to use chin na on you. Particularly in a "use chin na on me" set up as opposed to finding an opportunity and trying it during push hands or sparring or whatever.

Being winded after the short form doesn't sound too good, but there are a lot of reasons that could be the case. I wouldn't worry too much about that unless it showed itself to be a ongoing thing. Maybe he has a cold, or had already worked out very hard before you showed up, or something like that.

As for the focus on spiritual and health aspects - that may well be. It doesn't mean the class would be a waste for you, even if you are interested in applications. Body mechanics, preparation, sung, etc are all necessary grounding steps. You could get great body method and form training from someone like that and then move on to another teacher to work on applications. Of course, if there's a more martially oriented teacher readily available it's just as well to skip the middle man, unless the available health-oriented teacher has obviously better body method. Did you ask him explicitly if he taught applications?

[hinokata]

I have to agree with the earlier reply that 22 years of experience including aikido should make you quite a handful for anyone trying to use chin na on you.

Yeah, I don't like to be grabbed. I think this might have been a case that I had unreal expectations, I suppose somewhat of a reverse prejudice in that I just assumed that Chin Na was going to be superior to jujitsu/aikido. I forgot the fact that a MA is just a MA, and that they all have thier strengths and weaknesses, regardless of origins.

Particularly in a "use chin na on me" set up as opposed to finding an opportunity and trying it during push hands or sparring or whatever.

I'll readily agree that it was not a "fair" test, but I did expect to be put in my place.

Being winded after the short form doesn't sound too good, but there are a lot of reasons that could be the case. I wouldn't worry too much about that unless it showed itself to be a ongoing thing. Maybe he has a cold, or had already worked out very hard before you showed up, or something like that.

That is a good point, and one that I had failed to consider.

As for the focus on spiritual and health aspects - that may well be. It doesn't mean the class would be a waste for you, even if you are interested in applications. Body mechanics, preparation, sung, etc are all necessary grounding steps. You could get great body method and form training from someone like that and then move on to another teacher to work on applications.

Ok, this is where it is a bit fuzzy for me. Is it fairly easy to adapt from the "spiritual" forms into the applications when the time comes to move on? I would hate to get into a spot where I have to fight my own muscle memory because the practice/teaching was for a different purpose.

Of course, if there's a more martially oriented teacher readily available it's just as well to skip the middle man, unless the available health-oriented teacher has obviously better body method.

That is part of the problem. This teacher is the best that I have found thus far, one group actually lists it as a scientific experiment, and most of the others are hippie feel-good types. While there is nothing inherently wrong with that, it's just not what I am looking for. To each his own.

Did you ask him explicitly if he taught applications?

Yes I did. He says that he does, and showed me a few forms involving martial moves. I'm a little fuzy on the correct names, but I think some of them were "cannon fist", "Black dragon whips tail", "Black dragon strikes (something)", "8 directional palm". Pretty much the ones I recognized were "Grasp sparrow's tail", "part wild horse's mane", and "playing the lute", which are all contained in the books I have. Granted, I also do not have them all memorized.

Thank you very much for responding and pointing out something that I failed to find on my own.

[hinokata]

I don't really know what makes a good tai chi teacher, but I do have alot of experience(through my job of trying to mediate the esuing disputes) of business deals gone bad.

It is astounding how often I hear litanies of questions and misgivings that people felt before a given deal, and they go ahead anyway. In many cases, exactly what they feared would happen and be a problem happens, and is a problem. Not always, but enough that it forms a distinct and regular pattern in my experience. The ones who walk away from deals that give them the heebeejeebees don't have to call me, the ones who don't do.

The guy could be objectively the best teacher in the world, if he gives you the heebeejeebees, walk and find a teacher that doesn't.


That is also good advice when buying a car.

Good advice in general and usually I would follow that. What I am trying to avoid is making a judgement on something that I really don't have enough knowledge of to make a sound judgement call on. Thank you for input though

[qiew]

4. He said there is an Orthadox 37 form type of taijiquan, which according to my books, there is only 24, 48, and 108 posture forms.

Cheng Man-ch'ing 鄭曼青 was the 4th generation of Yang Taichi. He shortened Yang long form to 37 steps (short form). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheng_Man-ch%27ing
http://www.patiencetaichi.com/aspects.htm

Orthodox??????????

[RonH]

Ok, this is where it is a bit fuzzy for me. Is it fairly easy to adapt from the "spiritual" forms into the applications when the time comes to move on? I would hate to get into a spot where I have to fight my own muscle memory because the practice/teaching was for a different purpose.

It's easy. The type of taiji student you want to be (more towards a pacifist or the warrior) will determine how you use the spiritual parts.

That is part of the problem. This teacher is the best that I have found thus far, one group actually lists it as a scientific experiment, and most of the others are hippie feel-good types. While there is nothing inherently wrong with that, it's just not what I am looking for. To each his own.

Then, of the few that remain, who's the best of them?

Yes I did. He says that he does, and showed me a few forms involving martial moves. I'm a little fuzy on the correct names, but I think some of them were "cannon fist", "Black dragon whips tail", "Black dragon strikes (something)", "8 directional palm". Pretty much the ones I recognized were "Grasp sparrow's tail", "part wild horse's mane", and "playing the lute", which are all contained in the books I have. Granted, I also do not have them all memorized.

Don't worry about memorizing all of their names. So many people have different names for each one, it gets annoying. I gave up on trying to learn all their names long ago.

1. After showing me a form that was fairly quick (for the sake of demo purposes), he was slightly winded.

It could have just been heavy breathing. It happens to me, but I'm hardly winded. Normally, it's a sign that I'm getting reved up and just feel so pumped, my body wants more oxygen.

4. I was started with the "Hub and Spoke Qigong" drills, is that a normal starting step?

It wasn't for me. My profe would routinely speak of spiritual sayings in class, bringing up ones relevent to what was happening in the moment, but he focused more on us loosening up and learning how to get the moves right. From there, he left it up to the student where they wanted to take it, either to continue it, as an exercise or take it to its martial ending. Other teachers will start right off with the energetic aspects, but some don't want that and keep it to an exercise or want it for just the body mechanics of the martial part, but they'd do better with an external style because what they're looking for is not gonna come to them by ignoring the energetic part.

[Songwind]

Ok, this is where it is a bit fuzzy for me. Is it fairly easy to adapt from the "spiritual" forms into the applications when the time comes to move on? I would hate to get into a spot where I have to fight my own muscle memory because the practice/teaching was for a different purpose.

You shouldn't have to change anything if this guy is teaching properly. The same body mechanics that allow you to generate internal power and all that are the same things that are so good for you. For example, "Repulse Monkey" opens up the chest, exercises the waist, stretches the calves and hips, etc. It also teaches you to retreat while staying rooted and sets you up for a simultaneous parry & counter, among other things. A health-oriented teacher isn't going to spend a lot of time with you practicing that parry & counter, but the movements will be the same.

For someone who hasn't done IMA before, just getting your body to change the way you need it to is a big step. Getting used to the way your body is aligned, opening the hips, rounding the crotch, hollow chest, all that stuff, can be rough when you first start. Any properly taught t'ai chi form should be good for that, even if after it's over he just goes on to qigong instead of push hands and sparring.

Oh, and as far as starting with qigong - what kind was it? That set is not one I am familiar with, but if it's intended to get your body ready for the form, it seems like a good place to start. There are a lot of different approaches to this. My first teacher had us spend what felt like forever just standing, then just walking in a straight line, before we ever even looked a the first move of the form.

[bamboo_ leaf]

(but IMHO, one can never be truly open minded, as experience and prejudice will always influence your mind to some degree.)

in gen one may not find what one seeks and expects until ones experience are such that either one understands what it is one seeks, or is quite clear in what one expects.
.

Your post is not really clear about why after 22yrs in something else you want to change and what do you expect from this change. Regardless of not knowing or having any experience about it you must have some idea or reasons for wanting to study it. Taiji, as with many methods can be and is approached in a verity of ways reflecting different needs and skill sets of students and teachers. If what is shown or felt does not match with your expectations regardless of weather their founded on a poor understanding or not, it will never match unless you are truly able to empty your cup which you at this point you seem unwilling to do.

You need to get back to what is called a beginners mind, which after so much time in other things I don’t see how it would be possible. Your concerns show this quite clearly. This is quite common. Even with taiji training from other styles many really have trouble emptying their cup, and seem to be constantly comparing what they did learn to what they are learning, until such time as they really figure out what it is that they want, and expect.

Its called clarity and sincerity. My advice would be just to look around and if you see some one practicing taiji and the movements appeal to you on some level, try it just to learn the movements regardless of weather it is correct or not, regardless weather it is martial or not. This will allow you to approach it with an empty mind looking for something that for what ever reason seems to be something that you would like to do.
Helping you to unlearn and let go of things that you already can do.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Here's a fictional example of a perception shaped by both reality and ideas: a young external martial artist comes up with the idea that tai chi is a worthless martial art, and that there are no true masters left. He casts about, trying to find a tai chi master to fight him, to prove that the art is viable, functional, and real. He succeeds in proving his idea that the art is worthless because in pushing, he cannot find anyone to fight back. Perhaps if he meets a tai chi master, that master might have the idea, "Ah, this person is quite hard and not interested in learning softness yet" so they do not engage. The master's idea of mastery doesn't involve challenging people closed to his instruction. It just doesn't register as important or necessary because he has achieved emptiness, so all the young man's pushing for proof falls into emptiness. They never meet. Or having met, never fight.

http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/ubb/...ML/000099.html

from another site, you might find some meaning in it

[qiew]

hinokata

I asked him to apply a Chin Na technique to either my arm, upper body, or fingers if he could. He attempted 4-5 times and I *very* easily countered them.

That guy is either not fully understood TaiChi or does not utilising qi correctly in the practice.
TaiChi is not about attack. Its application to TaiChi Chin Na is a modern TaiChi martial Art to attract students.
TaiChi does not initial muscles and bones to punch, block, kick and push. It is the contunuatoin of utilising oponent force to initial attack.

1. After showing me a form that was fairly quick (for the sake of demo purposes), he was slightly winded.

God help him. If he only knows how to utilise qi with his taichi.

3. He seems to focus much more on the spiritual/meditation aspects than the martial ones.

Do you mean qi.


This is TaiChi http://www.taotaichiforum.com/index....le_view&iden=5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rz5tP...elated&search=

This is TaiChi Wrestling
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UTxC...elated&search=


Basic idea of TaiChi, but would be knock out by a boxer in 5 seconds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRhXT...elated&search=

This is a joke http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxfIp...elated&search=