Newbie Questions

[qiphlow]

hinokata: first, welcome.
taijiquan is a wonderful martial art and well worth the time it takes to learn. it has extremely good health benefits, and can be very effective for self defense as well. i would have to agree with bamboo leaf in that you have to "empty your cup" when you are starting taiji. (or anything else for that matter!) if you are limited to training with someone in your local area, then find who you feel is the best, and learn all you can from him or her. also study the taiji classics--these are the writings of some of the past masters about the principles and theory of taijiquan. they should be readily available in books. what style of taiji are you learning? yang? chen? wu? sun? they all have different flavors and shapes, but the principles of the art should be the same throughout. i will tell you one good thing that has held true for me as i enter my tenth year of practice: the more i learn, the deeper it gets, and the more i want to know!
and i'd like to reiterate something that you've probably heard ad nauseam, but bears repeating: there are many crap versions of taijiquan being taught these days--don't let that discourage you from looking thru all that to find the good stuff.

[hinokata]

Orthodox??????????

Thank you for that tidbit of information regarding the 37 form. Ortodox being taijichaun official sansction and modified by the chinese goverment for health/exercise benefits, at least that is my understanding of the term in this sense.

[hinokata]

To everyone that replied on this thread, thank you very much for your sharing your knowledge with me. Bamboo, you actually made alot of sense with your comment about empting your cup. I pondered the situation last night, using my experience, the information I gathered here, and the information contained in my books. I decided that I can not train under this teacher because as another gentleman pointed out, often times you come to regret it if you go against your intial impression. I also re-evaulated my ignorant position on CMA as some sort of mystical art, a similiar problem I had when I first started ninjutsu.

According to my book (which is: http://ymaa.com/publishing/books/internal/tai_chi_chuan ), it states that 70% of taijichaun can be learned from books, dvd, and tons of practice, so I decided to purchase the companion DVD and start there. I readily admit that it is not the optimal solution, but given the limited amount of good insructors in my area, I feel it is a good start. I have the dedication and willpower to train on my own, and after I have practiced and become comfortable with the movements, exercises, and postures, I will seek a master that will correct all the bad habits I have up till that point.

At the risk of sounding arrogant, I am a very intelligent person and I will be able to pick up quite a bit from the DVD/book. I am also smart enough to know, that those are only the basics (at best), and that to even pick those up properly, I WILL need an instructor at some point in the future at which time I will seek a qualified instructor, even if I do have to travel somewhere to see one. But by the time I go to seek the instructor, I will have a much better idea of what exactly it is I am looking for and i will be able to ask better, more informed questions.

I forget who it was, but someone asked why after 22 years in JMA, why would I want to switch. The honest answer is, I don't know. I have been feeling like I've been missing something for awhile now and originally was looking in the JMA arena. I didn't find anything that could fill that void. As funky as this sounds, I was watching a movie ("Twin Warriors") and I saw the initial movements in the beginning and something inside just went "I LIKE THAT!". The movements are so elegant and graceful, IMHO, more so than Aikido, although I was still under the impression at that point that taijichuan was strictly an exercise, so I started doing some research on it and discovered that lo and behold, it actually was an martial art. I find the movements fasicinating, and I felt like I *had* to learn that, that was what I was missing. That's really all the information I can tell you. I would also like to state, I am not going to forget my training in JMA, they are still very valid and effective forms of self-defense and they have served me well in the past, and I am sure they will in the future. I personally feel that the internal arts is how I want to progress in the future.

Again, to everyone whom offered input on this thread, thank you very much.

[bamboo_ leaf]

(I LIKE THAT!)

this is the best way to approach it. if I may forget about the usage. Just approach it by trying to match the movements exactly as you can with the understanding of what is being asked. In this way when you are asked to be straight and centered you can ponder and find the true meaning with out any other thoughts getting in the way.

Even if you wanted to, it would be hard to empty your cup, your body and inner mind will not allow it, this is to be expected. Which if you continue allowing the taiji to unfold inside, you really will come to a point where what you will need to do will be self evident. Only you will understand this point, it can not be reached in any other way it must come from the inside.

I think all here would join with me in wishing you much luck in this.

[msg]

hi hinokata just wanted to let you know that there is a very good teacher in denver.co his name is willem de thouars he is an elder man very very good teacher look him up on the computer for more info i have trianed in hi style for years it covers a lot

[hinokata]

hi hinokata just wanted to let you know that there is a very good teacher in denver.co his name is willem de thouars he is an elder man very very good teacher look him up on the computer for more info i have trianed in hi style for years it covers a lot

All I found was information linking him to silat. I don't dispute that he may be a fantastic teacher, but what does he have to do with Taijiquan?

[hinokata]

this is the best way to approach it. if I may forget about the usage. Just approach it by trying to match the movements exactly as you can with the understanding of what is being asked. In this way when you are asked to be straight and centered you can ponder and find the true meaning with out any other thoughts getting in the way.

I figure the first couple of months will most likely me trying to tell the difference between my elbow and my....well you know the rest of the expression.

Even if you wanted to, it would be hard to empty your cup, your body and inner mind will not allow it, this is to be expected. Which if you continue allowing the taiji to unfold inside, you really will come to a point where what you will need to do will be self evident. Only you will understand this point, it can not be reached in any other way it must come from the inside.

I agree with the beginning of the statement. As to the later, I don't have enough knowledge yet to agree or disagree.

I think all here would join with me in wishing you much luck in this.

Thank you very much. I hope that I don't ask too many "stupid" questions and annoy the good members of the forum. Thank you once again to everyone who provided input on this thread.

[qiew]

It is ok to DIY from good books and DVDs, then fine tune the movements with good instructor and friends consider you have 22 years of kungfu back ground.

You have to abandon the philosophy of your art of fighting techniqe using punch, block, kick, chop etc and understand the meaning of taichi. If you move your hand(s), you apply taichi wrongly. You should move your leg(s) and body to in most forms.

http://www.taotaichiforum.com/index....le_view&iden=9 would give you the idea of the correct postures.

Dr.Yang Jwing-Ming learnt kungfu in his early days before interested in TaiChi. He publishes several books and DVDs which may of some interest. His clips of several ilustractions are interesting but.................................http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vsmtm...elated&search=

Master Wu Kuo-Chung also turned from kungfu to taichi doing 37 forms and based in Taiwan. Defintely not orthodox.

Try learning to use the joint of hip for turning having the body as a straight line from the 百會PaiHui (crown of the head) through the hip joint to 湧泉Yongquan
(Gushing Spring).

You must understand each move and its principle.

Remember if you practice the same form for one thousand hours, you are still learning taichi. You may complete the full forms deep from your heart without thinking, you are still learning. If only you can instinctively move when an oponent touches you, you understand taichi.

[hinokata]

It is ok to DIY from good books and DVDs, then fine tune the movements with good instructor and friends consider you have 22 years of kungfu back ground.

I do not have 22 years in in kung fu. I have 22 years in JMA.

YYou have to abandon the philosophy of your art of fighting techniqe using punch, block, kick, chop etc and understand the meaning of taichi. If you move your hand(s), you apply taichi wrongly. You should move your leg(s) and body to in most forms.

One thing I can foresee myself having a problem with is treating it like Aikido because the principles are so similiar. I hope I will be able to correct this on my own.

http://www.taotaichiforum.com/index....le_view&iden=9 would give you the idea of the correct postures.

Dr.Yang Jwing-Ming learnt kungfu in his early days before interested in TaiChi. He publishes several books and DVDs which may of some interest. His clips of several ilustractions are interesting but.................................http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vsmtm...elated&search=

Very good videos. When I purchased the DVD, I also purchased the Push Hands one (course 1 & 2) as I figured that it will give me a better idea on the larger picture.

Remember if you practice the same form for one thousand hours, you are still learning taichi. You may complete the full forms deep from your heart without thinking, you are still learning. If only you can instinctively move when an oponent touches you, you understand taichi.

This sounds very close the "empty jacket" theory. Thank you for all of the good information and the link to correct posture. I'm sure it will come in useful.

[mantis108]

First off, thank you for taking the time to read the sections below. If you have a productive answer or some useful knowledge that you would care to share, please do so. The purpose of this post is to gather information from people whom have far more knowledge than I do on the subject. I would hate to not train with this person if it is a case of my lack of knowledge and prejudice preventing me from taking a wonderful opertunity. I have tried to be open minded in my sections labeled (counter), but IMHO, one can never be truly open minded, as experience and prejudice will always influence your mind to some degree.

Welcome to the forum and thanks for sharing your background. I would like to say that there are some good advices and comments shared by others already. I would like to share some thoughts with you as well.

Brief History:
- About 22 years total in martial arts training. Ninjutsu, Karate, Jujitsu and Aikido being the most training/heaviest influences. As you can see, mostly Japanese, traditional arts. (Yes I know you're screaming karate is Japanese, you dummy!, but I have a reason to say that this form is not quite Japanese )

I believe we need to bear in mind that while these are Japanese arts, they do share quite a bit of similarity with the TCMA.

Tonight:
I have to say the gentleman was very nice, and very knowledgeable in a scholarly fashion. He seemed to know all about meridians, chi, histories, etc. I have only the books I have purchased to go by regarding these arts however, so my knowledge is limited at best.

I am not trying to put anyone down but the truth is no one really does know everything about the Truth. Being knowledgeable and having insights are very different thing. It is comparable to a grade school teach and a university professor who doesn't really know the entire truth despite the fact that he has more insight than the grade school teacher on a given subject. It is the content not the amount that counts IMHO. There is only one truth but it can be seen or approached from many angle. Truth in the form of principle(s) should apply in any situation regardless whether it is physical, mental and/or spiritual. If not, it can't be deem as Truth. Martial arts truth is the same way.

My Concerns:
1. After showing me a form that was fairly quick (for the sake of demo purposes), he was slightly winded.

(counter) - I don't really have one for this. Possible bad judgment on my part of his breathing techniques? (Granted, I personally think this is a long stretch)

I don't think it is fair to pass judgement on his level of attainment unless we know the nature of the form. (ie a dynamic fight oriented form or slowly pace health/spiritual form?). But fair enough that he's winded which is a sign of lack of conditioning.

2. I told him that I had a question for him, and in all honesty it was a trick question. He told me to go ahead and ask, so I asked him to apply a Chin Na technique to either my arm, upper body, or fingers if he could. He attempted 4-5 times and I *very* easily countered them. I almost put him in a finger lock (habit) but caught myself. I then consiously resisted the urge to defend myself and he still could not apply the technique to the point where I could feel any pain.

So how did you start off? Did either of you grab the other initially or he has to try to get a hold of your hand first? What technique that you quizzed him on? Is it a specific one or just about any one would do? There is a difference. So we need to clarify that. It sounds like you have a specific technique in mind.

(counter) I am *very* flexible in my upper body and extremities. I also have a huge pain tolerance, and generally (most)pressure points do not work on me. Some of that is due to training, and partly due to nerve damage. An additional aspect is that perhaps I have a complete misunderstanding of Chin Na in the first place. I DO understand that ever hold has a counter, etc, but my personal opinion is that should I, coming from a vastly different style be able to counter all of his techniques so easily? My understanding is that "Chin Na" means "to seize and control", yet he was unable to do either.

You have a very good point. If his Chin Na is banking on pain compliance only, then I am afraid he really doesn't have any real knowledge of Chin Na at all. Chin Na is known as "Nian Na Die Fa" (stick and control takedown/falling method) in the old days. It is about taking the balance/root (the legs) of subject out. attacking the joints is but a tactic or the means to achieve the goal. He seems to have confused the goal with the means. Manipulating joints and pain compliance are most common errors that many teachers of Chin Na make when teaching it.

3. He seems to focus much more on the spiritual/meditation aspects than the martial ones.

Well, personally, they are one and the same in Kung Fu. I will flag a teacher that hold that kind of misguided view.

(counter) This could be that the concepts in Internal CMA are so different that I am unable to recognize the benefits down the road after years of training. I would like to point out that JMA is NOT without it's use of chi(ki) and usages, so it's not exactly a foreign concept to me.

IMHO there is no such a thing as external and internal Kung Fu. Real Kung Fu is both. It's a matter of emphasis. Kung Fu is about recognition of changing phases of life form (mainly human) and affecting changes of both the individual and its enviroment, which is what Qi (organic and holistic worldview) is about. It used to be part of the education system like its western counter part - sport. Sadly it's now totally out of the regular education system.

4. He said there is an Orthadox 37 form type of taijiquan, which according to my books, there is only 24, 48, and 108 posture forms.

Well, I would have throw him a curve ball and ask why is 37 more orthadox than 108, 48, or 24. If he said it is because his teacher got it from his teacher's teacher ect ; therefore, it's orthadox, I would red flag this teacher right away. He simply didn't do his homework.

(counter) This could very well be my lack of knowledge of CMA in general or that I misread something.

It's kind of you to save his face.

Tonight's Lessons:
I would like to point out that I am not disagreeing with the following statements, but my training has always taught me this is body dynamics and has very little to do with chi.

1. He stated that and standard horse stance allows an equal amount of Yin and Yang chi to circulate throughout the body.

Well, I have no idea where he got his training and information from. But when it comes to the earthly phyiscal body it's Gang (rigidity - fire) and Rou (fluidity - water) not Ying Yang used in the case of celestrial body such as Sun Moon Stars. The Yin Yang attribute (not Qi) in the physical body is Yang Qi (vital energy) and Yin Xue (blood). From the perspective of boold, this relationship is like master/teacher/commander and slave/student/troop. From the perspective of Qi, the relationship is like mother and son (Muzi). These relationships are there every single second that one is alive. Unless you don't own a physical body, then you don't need to worry about Yin Yang Gang Rou. Now if you do have a physical body and you are about to do a physical activity, then all these "internal" stuff are of importance IMHO.

I do agree that he seems missing the point in his explanation. The flow of Qi is a complicated issue. If you are interested, we can go into that later.

2. Open Horse stance - Chi flows downward into the ground providing you with better stability.

3. Closed Horse Stance - Chi flows up from the ground and into your fists, allowing harder/faster strikes, but at the cost of stability.

Umm... I persume he's trying to explain the difference between a "western saddle" (southern, wilder and open horse stance) and the "British saddle" (northern, narrower and closed? horse stance). Again, I don't know where he got his info from but it would seem that he doesn't quite understand Chinese medical or even Kung Fu anatomy.

4. I was started with the "Hub and Spoke Qigong" drills, is that a normal starting step?

Not sure what this is... but I suppose it's about using the hip/waist grid or core to direct the limbs. May be it's Chan Si Jing (silk reeling power generation)?

Again, in case anything I said above is misinterpreted, I have NOTHING against CMA, I am NOT looking for a style ****ing match, but I AM looking for useful and knowledgable information that will help on my path to learning Taijiquan.

Thank you again for you time, and any useful input that you can provide.

It's great to have discussion like this to clarify thing. So don't worry about it.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[hinokata]

Welcome to the forum and thanks for sharing your background. I would like to say that there are some good advices and comments shared by others already. I would like to share some thoughts with you as well.

Thank you very much taking the time to respond with so much information.

I believe we need to bear in mind that while these are Japanese arts, they do share quite a bit of similarity with the TCMA.

The only one I know for sure that does (aside from historical roots), is the style of karate, Okinawan Shorin Ryu Kenshin Kan Karate that I have studied. It even includes kata that I was told come from CMA. From what I was taught, it shares MANY similiar principles, such as more of center line attacking, some postures, and a much more fluid and circular style than say that of other hard styles of karate. My teacher said that Kise Sensei teaches two types of striking, "inside" and "outside". In this sense, it does not mean physical positions, but more striking outside (physical), and inside (energy). Personally, I do not view this style as Japanese per se, but Okinawan. I know Okinawa is part of Japan now, but the cultures ARE different from one another and they used to be seperate.

I am not trying to put anyone down but the truth is no one really does know everything about the Truth. Being knowledgeable and having insights are very different thing. It is comparable to a grade school teach and a university professor who doesn't really know the entire truth despite the fact that he has more insight than the grade school teacher on a given subject.

That is a very good point. The breadth of knowledge contained within any legitimate style is most likely more than any one man will ever fully know in his lifetime. Even great masters continued their education until death.

It is the content not the amount that counts IMHO.

I do not completely agree here. I would say it is both. For example, say that a person knows 5 techniques, but has mastered them to the point of perfection, and person b knows 20 techniques, but the mastery level is not as high, possibly Shodan level (from a good school). I personally think the Shodan will have a better chance due the fact that the limited techniques available to the master will begin to telegraph, and allow the Shodan the chance to develop/institute a counter. Granted, this is a GREATLY simplified example, but I think it illustrates my point.

There is only one truth but it can be seen or approached from many angle. Truth in the form of principle(s) should apply in any situation regardless whether it is physical, mental and/or spiritual. If not, it can't be deem as Truth. Martial arts truth is the same way.

I agree with you here.

I don't think it is fair to pass judgement on his level of attainment unless we know the nature of the form. (ie a dynamic fight oriented form or slowly pace health/spiritual form?).

IIRC, it was Yang traditional short form. He increased the speed of it due to time constraints.

But fair enough that he's winded which is a sign of lack of conditioning.

Someone else made a very good point regarding this, perhaps he had a cold or had done some heavy training before I arrived, or some other valid factor that I was not aware of.

So how did you start off? Did either of you grab the other initially or he has to try to get a hold of your hand first? What technique that you quizzed him on? Is it a specific one or just about any one would do? There is a difference. So we need to clarify that. It sounds like you have a specific technique in mind.

We started off from a neutral positions. I told him he that he was free to apply any technique that he felt would quickly demonstrate Chin Na for me on my upper body. I did not have a specific technique in mind when I asked him. Assuming that anything he did should have led into a throw or sweep, that also would have been highly unlikely as I was never unbalanced. Looking back on it now, he did not have what I would personally call a correct posture for controlling anyone. When that failed, I just gave him my arm and said do whatever, at which point he took me into a wrist lock after some fumbling. I would like to add, that when I get grabbed, my body instictivly positions itself to get out of the hold, so I did have to fight that.

You have a very good point. If his Chin Na is banking on pain compliance only, then I am afraid he really doesn't have any real knowledge of Chin Na at all. Chin Na is known as "Nian Na Die Fa" (stick and control takedown/falling method) in the old days. It is about taking the balance/root (the legs) of subject out. attacking the joints is but a tactic or the means to achieve the goal. He seems to have confused the goal with the means. Manipulating joints and pain compliance are most common errors that many teachers of Chin Na make when teaching it.

So it is primarily a set of methods to divert attention so that one can perform a sweep or throw?

IMHO there is no such a thing as external and internal Kung Fu. Real Kung Fu is both. It's a matter of emphasis. Kung Fu is about recognition of changing phases of life form (mainly human) and affecting changes of both the individual and its enviroment, which is what Qi (organic and holistic worldview) is about. It used to be part of the education system like its western counter part - sport. Sadly it's now totally out of the regular education system.

I really couldn't comment on this because my knowledge of Kung Fu is very limited. I was however, under the impression that Kung Fu was mostly external, much like most styles of karate.

Well, I would have throw him a curve ball and ask why is 37 more orthadox than 108, 48, or 24. If he said it is because his teacher got it from his teacher's teacher ect ; therefore, it's orthadox, I would red flag this teacher right away. He simply didn't do his homework.

I might have skewed this one a bit. To clarify, he included the 37 form with the 24, 48, and 108 forms. A gentleman in an early post pointed out where the 37 form comes from, but it doesn't seem to be officially sanctioned by the Chinese government, which is my understand of what the "orthodox" forms are.

It's kind of you to save his face.

Just trying to be open and honest.

Well, I have no idea where he got his training and information from. But when it comes to the earthly phyiscal body it's Gang (rigidity - fire) and Rou (fluidity - water) not Ying Yang used in the case of celestrial body such as Sun Moon Stars.

Ah, now these concepts are not so foreign to me. Ninjutsu bases many things around the elements. An example of water would be for person A to attack, defender moves back out of range and then immediately moves forward for the attack (like the ocean tide).

The Yin Yang attribute (not Qi) in the physical body is Yang Qi (vital energy) and Yin Xue (blood). From the perspective of boold, this relationship is like master/teacher/commander and slave/student/troop. From the perspective of Qi, the relationship is like mother and son (Muzi). These relationships are there every single second that one is alive. Unless you don't own a physical body, then you don't need to worry about Yin Yang Gang Rou. Now if you do have a physical body and you are about to do a physical activity, then all these "internal" stuff are of importance IMHO.

Very informative. Thank you for sharing your knowledge on this.

I do agree that he seems missing the point in his explanation. The flow of Qi is a complicated issue. If you are interested, we can go into that later.

I am very interested in learning as much as you are willing to teach me. Be warned though, I ask a lot of questions.

Umm... I persume he's trying to explain the difference between a "western saddle" (southern, wilder and open horse stance) and the "British saddle" (northern, narrower and closed? horse stance). Again, I don't know where he got his info from but it would seem that he doesn't quite understand Chinese medical or even Kung Fu anatomy.

Not quite. An open horse stance is one where you assume the standard horse stance, and turn your feet outward 35-45 degrees. A closed horse stance is the opposite and one where you would turn your feet inward. The former provides great stability at the cost on agility, the later allows greater agility but at the loss of stability. Honestly, I do not like the closed horse stance as I think there are much better stances that provide almost as much agility, without the same cost of stability.

Not sure what this is... but I suppose it's about using the hip/waist grid or core to direct the limbs. May be it's Chan Si Jing (silk reeling power generation)?

I couldn't find it in my books either. It's basically a set of 5 exercises that have you turning your waist side to side while swinging your arms, "Ringing the Golden Bell" is one of them if I remember correctly. I actually took notes on the names, so I could provide that if you are interested.

It's great to have discussion like this to clarify thing. So don't worry about it.

I agree, and I am learning a great deal.

[mantis108]

Thank you very much taking the time to respond with so much information.

You are most welcome. It's great to have discussion like this with someone of your expirence.

The only one I know for sure that does (aside from historical roots), is the style of karate, Okinawan Shorin Ryu Kenshin Kan Karate that I have studied. It even includes kata that I was told come from CMA. From what I was taught, it shares MANY similiar principles, such as more of center line attacking, some postures, and a much more fluid and circular style than say that of other hard styles of karate. My teacher said that Kise Sensei teaches two types of striking, "inside" and "outside". In this sense, it does not mean physical positions, but more striking outside (physical), and inside (energy). Personally, I do not view this style as Japanese per se, but Okinawan. I know Okinawa is part of Japan now, but the cultures ARE different from one another and they used to be seperate.

Well, personally style really doesn't matter. Whether it is Japanese or Chinese origin makes no particular difference in effectiveness. But is good to know where things come from (human nature I supposed).

That is a very good point. The breadth of knowledge contained within any legitimate style is most likely more than any one man will ever fully know in his lifetime. Even great masters continued their education until death.

Agreed.

I do not completely agree here. I would say it is both. For example, say that a person knows 5 techniques, but has mastered them to the point of perfection, and person b knows 20 techniques, but the mastery level is not as high, possibly Shodan level (from a good school). I personally think the Shodan will have a better chance due the fact that the limited techniques available to the master will begin to telegraph, and allow the Shodan the chance to develop/institute a counter. Granted, this is a GREATLY simplified example, but I think it illustrates my point.

Well, at mastery level, the master properly won't need to or have the desire to fight anymore. I believe you would be familiar with Miyamoto Musashi's Book of Five Rings? Musashi also went on to do calligraphys, paintings, sculptures, writing, etc. He is also one master that believe less is more. My point is that to master a technique is to master it's timing, energy, and motion and the more techniques that you have the more time you will need to drill and perfect those variables. It's like having a huge amount of debt load to be paid. Is it really a wise thing to accumilate that many techniques?

IIRC, it was Yang traditional short form. He increased the speed of it due to time constraints.

I would think he's more interested in impressing you than observing principle of Taiji or the Dao (the way). If really there is a time comstraint, he should have declined the performance or just do a section for demo. By hurrying up, he has gone against the number one principle of Taiji IMHO.

Someone else made a very good point regarding this, perhaps he had a cold or had done some heavy training before I arrived, or some other valid factor that I was not aware of.

Well... I am under the impression that he's trying to sell you "his brand of Taiji" which speaks volume about how much he is about his ego to me.

We started off from a neutral positions. I told him he that he was free to apply any technique that he felt would quickly demonstrate Chin Na for me on my upper body. I did not have a specific technique in mind when I asked him. Assuming that anything he did should have led into a throw or sweep, that also would have been highly unlikely as I was never unbalanced. Looking back on it now, he did not have what I would personally call a correct posture for controlling anyone. When that failed, I just gave him my arm and said do whatever, at which point he took me into a wrist lock after some fumbling. I would like to add, that when I get grabbed, my body instictivly positions itself to get out of the hold, so I did have to fight that.

So you were both stationary? You weren't doing some sort of sticky hands or push hands? That's pretty hard if you weren't feeding him something and that forces him to fish for something. It sounds to me he's either overly confident of his skill or he's not that experienced with actual application at all. I mean he might be very "knowledgeable" about a lot of moves but he doesn't seem to have spent too much time to drill them in order to get the true dynamics of them (this is not unlike the Shodan example that you gave).

So it is primarily a set of methods to divert attention so that one can perform a sweep or throw?

not necessarily but if one is to apprehend someone than it is much more practical to flatten out the subject one way or the other.

I really couldn't comment on this because my knowledge of Kung Fu is very limited. I was however, under the impression that Kung Fu was mostly external, much like most styles of karate.

no worries then.

I might have skewed this one a bit. To clarify, he included the 37 form with the 24, 48, and 108 forms. A gentleman in an early post pointed out where the 37 form comes from, but it doesn't seem to be officially sanctioned by the Chinese government, which is my understand of what the "orthodox" forms are.

Regardless, the fact the government sanctioned anything doesn't make some thing "orthodox". PROC sanctioned modern Wushu and San Shou (the sport). It doesn't make these "orthodox" Kung Fu material or authentic anything for that matter. My point is that he failed to qualify or define his "orthodox" view with actual insights into the forms; rather he relied on the "authority" to answer your question.

[mantis108]

I am very interested in learning as much as you are willing to teach me. Be warned though, I ask a lot of questions.

To be honest, you are quite knowledgeable already and I don't think I am in the position to teach you anything. I would however share some thoughts with you since the flow of Qi is related to the next part (horse stance).

When it comes to the physical body from a martial arts rather then a medical perspective, it is about the attributes of Gang Rou. In Chinese worldview, a human body consists of 8 Gang and 12 Rou which reflects the number (20) representing Liang Yi (two archetypes - yinyang) which is commonly and erronously known as Taiji. The 8 odd vessels of the body correspond to the 8 Gang and the 12 paired meridians correspond to the 12 Rou. The 12 meridians (6 yang and 6 yin) are connected to Wu Cang (5 yin organs) and Liu Fu (6 yang organs) where the Qi Xue constantly flows through with a timed schedeul. Similar to plants and animals behavioral responses to the changes of the seasons of the year, the meridian becomes "active" during the 12 Shi (a period of 2 hours) of the day alternately. For example the Gull bladder meridian will be most active during 11 p.m. to 1 a.m.; while Heart meridian will be most active during 11 a.m. to 1 p.m. This BTW is where the centerline theory came from IMHO. When the meridians and organs are functioning properly, they will produce surplus Qi which will flow into and "store" in the Ren and Du vessels and when the meridians and organs are deficient, the Qi from the Ren Du vessels will be returning to the system to compensate the deficiency. For martial arts and spiritual meditation practice, it is the Qi that is in the Ren and Du vessels that matters. That's Qi flow for martial arts in a nutshell.

Not quite. An open horse stance is one where you assume the standard horse stance, and turn your feet outward 35-45 degrees. A closed horse stance is the opposite and one where you would turn your feet inward. The former provides great stability at the cost on agility, the later allows greater agility but at the loss of stability. Honestly, I do not like the closed horse stance as I think there are much better stances that provide almost as much agility, without the same cost of stability.

Okay, I see what you mean now. The proper horse stance from a Chinese perspective should be with the feet parallel not outward or inward. There are 2 reasons.

First of all, it is to activate the Gull Bladder meridian which governs courage. Combat requires courage. The Gushing Spring point is BTW associated with the Gull Bladder meridian. By placing the foot in parallel position, you will be activating the GBM which runs straight from the right side of the head and zig zag a little bit around the middle of the torso and the down along the outside of the right thigh to the outside of the foot then back to the big toe. The gripping the toes is important in order to prevent the foot rolls onto the pinky toe side; hence, obstructing the flow of Qi.

The second reason is more of a body mechanics. The open horse stance in Japanese styles is actually more mobile than the Chinese paralle feet horse stance not to mention the potential knee problem coming from the knee-toes alignments IMHO. But more importantly, the Chinese horse stance locks the hip in place thus allowing transfer of energy from the ground up without losing much of it. You will not see a "S" shape shaking of the torso with this kind of mechanics no matter how hard one punches. On the other hand, you will see significant shaking of the torso with the Japanese styles especially with the novices. This is due to the hip is not lock down with the feet placement. You could experiment with it and see.

So you see Kung Fu addresses both "internal" and "external" aspects at once. That in my mind what pugilistic reasoning (philosophy) is about. This is by no means knocking the Japanese counter part. It's just different. As long as you can stand and fight effectively, it really doesn't matter.

I couldn't find it in my books either. It's basically a set of 5 exercises that have you turning your waist side to side while swinging your arms, "Ringing the Golden Bell" is one of them if I remember correctly. I actually took notes on the names, so I could provide that if you are interested.

It would be great if you would share them. Thanks.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[hinokata]

You are most welcome. It's great to have discussion like this with someone of your expirence.

It sounds as though you have as much, or more in your areas of study.

Well, personally style really doesn't matter. Whether it is Japanese or Chinese origin makes no particular difference in effectiveness. But is good to know where things come from (human nature I supposed).

I agree. For that matter, Europe and the middle east also have some fine fighting arts. None that I personally care to learn, but effective none the less.

Well, at mastery level, the master properly won't need to or have the desire to fight anymore.

hahahaha, that is a very good point, however it was not the focus of the discussion

I believe you would be familiar with Miyamoto Musashi's Book of Five Rings? Musashi also went on to do calligraphys, paintings, sculptures, writing, etc. He is also one master that believe less is more. My point is that to master a technique is to master it's timing, energy, and motion and the more techniques that you have the more time you will need to drill and perfect those variables. It's like having a huge amount of debt load to be paid. Is it really a wise thing to accumilate that many techniques?

I see your point on this, however I think we shall just have to agree to disagree.

I would think he's more interested in impressing you than observing principle of Taiji or the Dao (the way). If really there is a time comstraint, he should have declined the performance or just do a section for demo. By hurrying up, he has gone against the number one principle of Taiji IMHO.

Interesting. One thing I would have to ask then, is it the speed itself that went against the principle, or the fact that it was not done with respect?

Well... I am under the impression that he's trying to sell you "his brand of Taiji" which speaks volume about how much he is about his ego to me.

I've decided to purchase someone else's Taiji, his book, and his DVD.

So you were both stationary? You weren't doing some sort of sticky hands or push hands?

Yes to the former, no to the latter.

That's pretty hard if you weren't feeding him something and that forces him to fish for something. It sounds to me he's either overly confident of his skill or he's not that experienced with actual application at all. I mean he might be very "knowledgeable" about a lot of moves but he doesn't seem to have spent too much time to drill them in order to get the true dynamics of them (this is not unlike the Shodan example that you gave).

Forgive my ignorance, but what is so difficult about the situation? I could think of quite a few techniques that could be easily applied from a stand-still position like that. He DID have the option to unbalance me, which he chose not to take, which does lend credience to latter part of your statement.

not necessarily but if one is to apprehend someone than it is much more practical to flatten out the subject one way or the other.

I suppose then it depends on your ultimate goal for the grappling in the first place.

Regardless, the fact the government sanctioned anything doesn't make some thing "orthodox". PROC sanctioned modern Wushu and San Shou (the sport). It doesn't make these "orthodox" Kung Fu material or authentic anything for that matter. My point is that he failed to qualify or define his "orthodox" view with actual insights into the forms; rather he relied on the "authority" to answer your question.

Ah, I thought that was the "correct" term for the PROC sanctioned taijichaun forms. Apparently that was my error.

[hinokata]

To be honest, you are quite knowledgeable already and I don't think I am in the position to teach you anything.

I appreciate the compliment although I am somewhat suprised to read that coming from you. You seem like a knowledgeable person yourself and should know that you can ALWAYS learn something from someone else, if you only take the time to look.

I would however share some thoughts with you since the flow of Qi is related to the next part (horse stance).

Thank you for taking the time to do so, I appreciate it.

When it comes to the physical body from a martial arts rather then a medical perspective, it is about the attributes of Gang Rou. In Chinese worldview, a human body consists of 8 Gang and 12 Rou which reflects the number (20) representing Liang Yi (two archetypes - yinyang) which is commonly and erronously known as Taiji. The 8 odd vessels of the body correspond to the 8 Gang and the 12 paired meridians correspond to the 12 Rou. The 12 meridians (6 yang and 6 yin) are connected to Wu Cang (5 yin organs) and Liu Fu (6 yang organs) where the Qi Xue constantly flows through with a timed schedeul. Similar to plants and animals behavioral responses to the changes of the seasons of the year, the meridian becomes "active" during the 12 Shi (a period of 2 hours) of the day alternately. For example the Gull bladder meridian will be most active during 11 p.m. to 1 a.m.; while Heart meridian will be most active during 11 a.m. to 1 p.m. This BTW is where the centerline theory came from IMHO. When the meridians and organs are functioning properly, they will produce surplus Qi which will flow into and "store" in the Ren and Du vessels and when the meridians and organs are deficient, the Qi from the Ren Du vessels will be returning to the system to compensate the deficiency. For martial arts and spiritual meditation practice, it is the Qi that is in the Ren and Du vessels that matters. That's Qi flow for martial arts in a nutshell.

Excellent information! That gives me an excellent starting point to begin searching for additional information on my own.

Okay, I see what you mean now. The proper horse stance from a Chinese perspective should be with the feet parallel not outward or inward.

Well technically, those are variations on the "standard" horse stance, which appears to pretty much be indentical to the Chinese version.

There are 2 reasons.

First of all, it is to activate the Gull Bladder meridian which governs courage. Combat requires courage. The Gushing Spring point is BTW associated with the Gull Bladder meridian. By placing the foot in parallel position, you will be activating the GBM which runs straight from the right side of the head and zig zag a little bit around the middle of the torso and the down along the outside of the right thigh to the outside of the foot then back to the big toe. The gripping the toes is important in order to prevent the foot rolls onto the pinky toe side; hence, obstructing the flow of Qi.

So assuming this is all accurate (and I'm not saying that it isn't), is it also possible to disrupt the flow of chi by moving your opponents body into mal-aligned positions and/or striking meridians? Assuming that it is possible, what are the effects of doing such strikes? For example, if you disrupt the Gall Bladder meridian, is it possible to turn the opponent into a coward?

The second reason is more of a body mechanics. The open horse stance in Japanese styles is actually more mobile than the Chinese paralle feet horse stance not to mention the potential knee problem coming from the knee-toes alignments IMHO. But more importantly, the Chinese horse stance locks the hip in place thus allowing transfer of energy from the ground up without losing much of it. You will not see a "S" shape shaking of the torso with this kind of mechanics no matter how hard one punches. On the other hand, you will see significant shaking of the torso with the Japanese styles especially with the novices. This is due to the hip is not lock down with the feet placement.

You could experiment with it and see.

I might do that, just because I'm curious. I'll borrow a camcorder and record it so that I can look at from a 3rd person perspective. Assuming the "s" shape does occur, I will also test it with bo/jo/nunchaku strikes to see if the same effect happens.

So you see Kung Fu addresses both "internal" and "external" aspects at once. That in my mind what pugilistic reasoning (philosophy) is about.

I see your point. This isn't that far away from a lot of the principles of Aikido. The meridian concepts are different, but I think the underlying principle is the same. Channeling and extending your ki as well as re-directing your opponents ki is something you begin to understand down the road.

This is by no means knocking the Japanese counter part. It's just different. As long as you can stand and fight effectively, it really doesn't matter.

It wasn't taken that way. It's an open discussion and we're comparing based on the strengths of our knowledge. I hope to have as much knowledge in CMA some day.

It would be great if you would share them. Thanks.

Arm Swing
Wrapping the waist
Lifting the curtain
Ringing the Golden Bell

He also made mention of 3 gates Qigong for energy development, if that means anything to you.