Any Christian Martial Arts Schools?

[YiLiQuan1]

Yeah lung kinda like this right here....

I missed that bit entirely as I was shaking my head so hard in disbelief about what this guy was asking...

Man I don't get how anyone in their right mind can honestly think that they have the ultimate undeniable truth...

Because they lack something in their life so profoundly that they absorb some claptrap foreign religion in order to elevate themselves to a position of higher morality and ethics (which, as recent events have displayed over and over, are a complete and utter load...). This automatically lowers everyone else, and provides complete surety that the positions will never be reversed (since nonbelievers are automatically condemned to an eternity of suffering, though the ignorant faithful are guaranteed to go to Heaven after they die - but doesn't the Book say something about sleeping until the Second Coming? Nothing in there about a direct flight to the Pearly Gates...).

why can't people just realise that they have no idea what is going on and as much as they might want something to be, it is just a belief until the day we die and know for certain...

Again, some people are so weak-minded that they cling to their religion to give their empty lives meaning... Death in the family? How do you justify that? Easy! Accept Jaah-EEE-zuss-ah! The mystery of God's plan explains the unexplainable, doesn't it?

It in truth has nothing to do with WHAT is right....WHAT is a matter of personal perspective and there isn't a soul on this planet that has right to say who's WHAT is right and who's WHAT is wrong...that is just delusional...

Right and wrong are one thing. They are, to a great degree, universal throughout the human species. It's when we anthropomorphize Deity that we start getting in trouble...

A bunch of Middle Eastern guys really dig this one dude that says some pretty cool things, some politically charged, some religiously inspiring. Fine. The message spreads around the area. Still fine. Two millennia later, after endless discussion, debate, political in-fighting, discontent, inability to agree on what singular, out-of-context passages really mean, inability of history to support events described, people are still shocked when literate, competent, modern people don't jump on the Faith Wagon...

The saying "Religion is the opiate of the masses" has never rung so true...

[lunghushan]

"Fundies" rhymes with "undies" and we all know what they're both full of, don't we?

As long as they're not chasing me, I don't mind. I think that's the entire point of the separation of church and state is that people don't try to enforce their religion upon others.

The thing that fundies don't seem to get is that it could go the opposite way, and then they wouldn't like it. They wouldn't like somebody else forcing their religion upon them, so why do they want to enforce their religion upon others? As it says in the Bible, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

[YiLiQuan1]

As long as they're not chasing me, I don't mind. I think that's the entire point of the separation of church and state is that people don't try to enforce their religion upon others.

Well, truthfully, the US was never intended to be tolerant of all religions... Freedom of religion was for the Colonists/New Americans to practice their religion, which was in conflict with the Church of England's teachings (one of the reasons the "Pilgrims" got the job to come over here and colonize in the first place; the King got colonists and got rid of religious kooks...)

The thing that fundies don't seem to get is that it could go the opposite way, and then they wouldn't like it. They wouldn't like somebody else forcing their religion upon them, so why do they want to enforce their religion upon others?

You betcha... Step on their religious freedoms and SHAZAM! they're freaking out and taking you to court. Take away the religious freedoms from any other group, then they're astoundingly silent...

As it says in the Bible, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Does the Book actually say that? I thought that was a Ben Franklin-ism.

[lunghushan]

Because they lack something in their life so profoundly that they absorb some claptrap foreign religion in order to elevate themselves to a position of higher morality and ethics (which, as recent events have displayed over and over, are a complete and utter load...).
...

The saying "Religion is the opiate of the masses" has never rung so true...

I dunno ... what is it that is in people that most of them will believe something written in a book, without any proof, without any question, without a second thought?

It must be some sort of genetic, inbred socialization mechanism, because they do the same thing with science. If somebody is peer reviewed and has a PhD after their name, most people will believe them without even reading the paper, without any proof, without any question, and without a second thought.

In a way, the entire mechanism of society runs the same way. People seem to trust or believe in certain figures of authority, whether or not those people really are trustworthy, because those people are in authority, and other people look up to them.

Just as with celebrities, because those people are on the big screen, people seem to give them laud and authority that they don't really deserve, just because they are playing a part on a screen.

[lunghushan]

Well, truthfully, the US was never intended to be tolerant of all religions... Freedom of religion was for the Colonists/New Americans to practice their religion, which was in conflict with the Church of England's teachings (one of the reasons the "Pilgrims" got the job to come over here and colonize in the first place; the King got colonists and got rid of religious kooks...)

Well, it was you are free for your Protestant offshoot sect of the month, I guess. (I'm not sure how many Anglicans or Catholics there were ... Irish Catholics were persecuted a lot when they came over supposedly).

Does the Book actually say that? I thought that was a Ben Franklin-ism.

Yep, Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 7:12, "All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them."

[lunghushan]

What I would hypothesize is that this accepting of things without questioning is actually a form of cretinism, and a lack of higher brain function.

If you consider that as humans mature, they go through various fetal stages, conforming to various animal stages, and if you study the brains of humans, you will see that they have the same lower brain functions as other 'lower' mammals and reptiles.

But where they differ according to studies is in the higher order brain functions.

So if you consider that the brain has a problem developing without the right nutrition, especially the right amino acids and iodine, and this can cause a type of cretinism to develop, it is logical to assume there are various levels of cretinism.

Some forms of cretinism probably only affect the highest order brain functions of logic and reasoning, whereas the more severe forms of cretinism can cause the person to take on more traits of an animalistic nature with severe learning and behavior deficiencies.

So these lower order forms of cretinism probably would cause people to develop in a way much closer to their primate counterparts than actual humans in terms of their logic and reasoning skills.

So if you consider that many places in the world have a low nutrition, and especially those places that use cows milk for infants and children which has the wrong type of amino acids for brain development, it would stand to reason that these places would have higher levels of cretinism than other populations.

In fact, in the Hebrew Bible, it talks about using goats milk, and scientists have found that goats milk is closer to human milk in amino acid composition.

So it would probably not be too much of a stretch to assume that the U.S., having a high degree of factory farming, low micronutrient levels in the soil due to a high use of PNK fertilizers which leach minerals from the soil, and a high use of cows milk in children and mothers feeding children, would have a high rate of low level cretinism.

Or in other words, a lot of people in the U.S. probably don't have use of their higher order logic and reasoning functions, and have a high level of learning disabilities. Which could explain the fact that they accept many things in ancient books without question.

[k-no]

Dude, if you're gonna be that anal about it why even practice a MARTIAL art? Wasn't it Jesus who advocated "turning the other cheek"? I'm always confused at ya'll picking and choosing what you want to follow from the Bible and ignoring the rest. The fact that you're even indulging in training in an art designed to hurt other people goes against Christian ideals.

I guess if I go to the military cemetery and salute a hero's gravestone, I'm an "occultist".

k

[Ravenshaw]

Okay, I think everyone is getting a little too hard on the OP. Religion's a touchy subject, so let's try to keep the flames low.

JDK, the symbols you linked to aren't "occult." To be frank, "occult" is a pejorative that some Christian groups (Chiristian Coalition comes to mind) to put down and literally demonize other practices. There isn't much that's "hidden" or "secret" about the statues or images you linked. Information is widely available and considering how many Chinese know about them, they couldn't possibly be "hidden." They are not objectively any more occult than crosses or Christian images.

I neither put down nor promote any religion in this post, I'm just trying to foster some tolerance.

The meaning of the Yin and Yang as it pertains to the martial arts is entirely separate from the explanation you linked. A single symbol can be used to different ends, and this is historically demonstrable. The swastika is the clearest example.

JDK, I really do respect your religion, and I haven't knocked it here once. I just don't think there's a conflict. And if you simply can't get over some of the trappings of Chinese culture, I'm sure you'll find a school that does not pay much attention to such things, as some of my teachers don't.

Like I said before, good luck. And, everyone, please don't vent your frustrations on this one guy.

[lunghushan]

Okay, I think everyone is getting a little too hard on the OP. Religion's a touchy subject, so let's try to keep the flames low.

...

Like I said before, good luck. And, everyone, please don't vent your frustrations on this one guy.

That's a good point. If there's one thing I don't like it's religious persecution.

There's plenty of Christian MA schools out there if that's your thing, JKD, you just gotta widen your search radius, I guess. You might even ask around your church if there's any MA practitioners.

But please keep in mind that when Jesus traveled around, he preached to Jews, Samaritans and Romans alike. He didn't judge them because they were Jewish or because they were Christian. (Christianity wasn't exactly a religion then).

Just because they worship 'idols' in your view doesn't mean you can't live amongst the Philistines. By judging others by their practices is pretty un-Christian. You might want to read up on Jesus time amongst the Samaritans what he said about that.

If you read the Bible, Jesus message if anything is one of tolerance. As Jesus said, "Let him who has not sinned throw the first stone."

[golden arhat]

you cant worship buddha or any other bodhisattva because they are not gods merely (not the right word) enlightened
most of the "gods" are ancestors or venerated heroes e.g. gwan gung
you follow their example and lay incense at a shrine its different
second whats your beef with buddhism ?
seriously all you baptist morons are whats wrong with the world today

[Fu-Pow]

I don't see much conflict between Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism (the predominant "religions" of China) and Christianity. The reason being that eastern "religions" are not really "religions" in the sense of abrahamic religions (ie judaism, christianity or islam.) Confucianism is more of a philosophy. Taoism and Buddhism are more like philosophies that have associated psychological practices (ie meditation.)

The other thing is that elements of these religions are so ingrained into the Chinese culture that it is hard to seperate out what is "religious" and what is "Chinese." For example, my Chinese friend's father just died. They are a Catholic family and yet they still followed many Buddhist traditions not because they are buddhists but because they are Chinese.

Its the same with kung fu. You will often see Sifu's doing things that might seem vaguely buddhist/taoist/confucian but they are doing so out of a respect for tradition rather than because they are showing some kind of religious devotion.

So if you want to practice kung fu with a Sifu who respects tradition then you're going to have to play by his rules and respect tradition. And most Sifu's do respect tradition, even if they hold other religious beliefs.

So you might be better off to look to western arts because they didn't arise in a culture steeped in "occult" religions.

Regards,

FP

[JDK]

Bottomline it isn't worth trying to argue about it. At least Seattle isn't in the Bible Belt. Although there is a huge Christian church right behind my house. (Which, ironically, is about 90% Asian in terms of people who go there).

Anyways, JDK, Here's the Christian MA network ... 9 schools in Ohio.

http://www.agapy.com/cma/directory.html

Thank you very much lunghushan ,,,that was thoughtful of you to take the time to look that up. There IS a School close to me that I will try nd visit this week.

Thanks aagain..and sorry to everyone I offended

JD

[Ben Gash]

Dude, if you're gonna be that anal about it why even practice a MARTIAL art? Wasn't it Jesus who advocated "turning the other cheek"? I'm always confused at ya'll picking and choosing what you want to follow from the Bible and ignoring the rest. The fact that you're even indulging in training in an art designed to hurt other people goes against Christian ideals.

I guess if I go to the military cemetery and salute a hero's gravestone, I'm an "occultist".

k

Not wishing to start a lengthy debate, this is typical non-contextual literalism, of the kind that extremists are usually criticised for
Pacifism is not a tenet of Christianity, and more importantly the sermon on the mount is NOT about how to lead your daily lives. It is in fact a discourse on the dangers of non-contextual literalism It is about the abuses of Jewish law by the Pharisees, which were leading Israel away from God under the guise of following His commands. The message of the sermon on the mount is that the spirit of the law is more important than the letter of it. The turning the other cheek verse is not about violence, it's about justice and mercy. Christians are not called upon to be passive, they are called to be merciful as God has been merciful to them.
Indeed, one of the core principles of Christianity is that Jesus was without sin. Therefore nothing that Jesus did could be sinful, and we know that Jesus engaged in an act of violence (John chapter 2).
ANYWAY, the original post. I'm an orthodox evangelical, and I will say that there are 2 problems. The first is the one very eloquently put by FuPow in probably the most intelligent post here. Chinese culture is fundamentally alien to us, and much of it seems strange and inexplicable, which makes it hard to exercise discernment.
The Yin Yang article you posted is typical of the problem. Because it bears all the hallmarks of a mystical symbol, many people assume it must be. To further complicate matters various mystics and spiritual philosophies draw on the Yin and Yang (or the Taiji as it's more properly called) for inspiration. The article highlights the real problem though, which is that a load of flakey new agers have hijacked it and made up a mythology around it This then becomes what people believe about it and Christians then make decisions based on falsehoods
The Taiji symbol is really just an illustration of the Chinese view of how the world works, and if you speak to any Physicist they'll tell you that in fact on many levels that IS how the world works. You're utilising the power of Yin and Yang whenever you turn on a lightswitch.
So why does some of this stuff seem wrong? A further complication is that you have to look at your Christian worldview and discern how much of it is Christian and how much of it is Roman? Christianity spread through the Roman empire, and the Roman empire flourished for so long because they were good at adapting, so the Roman way of life came to be the Christian way of life and vice versa. Naturalistic philosophies such as those you see in China came to be frowned upon as relics of our pagan past, and this attitude pervades to this day.
The second problem is that some clubs are downright flakey!!! You need to exercise discernment, but then you need to exercise discernment in all things. I could name several churches in my not too large town that I think you should be wary of, so why should a kung fu club be any different. New agers have hijacked chinese martial arts and done untold harm However at the same time many teachers are strict Buddhists and will talk about Buddhism because it's important to them. Go to a school, check it out, and TALK frankly and respectfully with the teacher who should be more than happy to discuss any concerns with you.
Remember, it's very difficult to sin passively.

[Fu-Pow]

The Yin Yang article you posted is typical of the problem. Because it bears all the hallmarks of a mystical symbol, many people assume it must be. To further complicate matters various mystics and spiritual philosophies draw on the Yin and Yang (or the Taiji as it's more properly called) for inspiration. The article highlights the real problem though, which is that a load of flakey new agers have hijacked it and made up a mythology around it This then becomes what people believe about it and Christians then make decisions based on falsehoods
The Taiji symbol is really just an illustration of the Chinese view of how the world works, and if you speak to any Physicist they'll tell you that in fact on many levels that IS how the world works. You're utilising the power of Yin and Yang whenever you turn on a lightswitch.

Yes, exactly. Taoism is more of a naturalistic philosophy than anything else. However, it also has what, from a scientific view, might be called somato-psychological practices associated with it. It seems that ignorant Christians want to categorize it as a religion but again, its not a religion in the abrahamic sense. It seems there is a fundamenta lack of understanding about eastern religions. Mostly I think because Christians have been tought that if they even learn about other religions and beliefs they will become tainted somehow. To me that just seems like a way to keep your followers in the fold, because they might find something they like better along the way.

To qualify what I posted earlier, there are sects of buddhism that have whole pantheons of gods. Those tend to be in the Mahayana sect of buddhism. In this way they are more like a religion. There are also local superstitions and "occult" practices that have melded with buddhism in certain areas. So its not completely black and white.

However at the same time many teachers are strict Buddhists and will talk about Buddhism because it's important to them. Go to a school, check it out, and TALK frankly and respectfully with the teacher who should be more than happy to discuss any concerns with you.
Remember, it's very difficult to sin passively.

That's a good point. If this fellow should avoid these types of schools with buddhist teachers. But I doubt that he will find a traditional school that eschews all Chinese traditions and by default cultural overtones.

Good luck!

FP

[lunghushan]

ANYWAY, the original post. I'm an orthodox evangelical, and I will say that there are 2 problems. The first is the one very eloquently put by FuPow in probably the most intelligent post here. Chinese culture is fundamentally alien to us, and much of it seems strange and inexplicable, which makes it hard to exercise discernment.

I won't go into the rest of your post, but this bit is just ??? Chinese culture is alien??? What planet do you live on? Is Chinese culture really alien to you? You never hung out with Chinese people, studied CMA, ate Chinese food, drank Chinese beer, read translations of Chinese books or anything???

Maybe it's just living in the U.S., but I have a hard time thinking of any culture that is 'alien'. Perhaps Senegal or something -- yes, I don't think I ever met somebody from Senegal.

Maybe you never took a comparative religion class?

I guess I never realized there were still people in the world who didn't look outside their little box. I thought my dad was the only one.