Any Christian Martial Arts Schools?

[Ben Gash]

Get of your soapbox a minute there. Chinese culture is by definition alien in that it is not mine and does not have an overlap with my own heritage. If you think that studying CMA and eating Chinese food gives you some deep insight into Chinese culture then you are deluded. I am not living inside my own little box, and yes I did take comparitive religion classes (but I majored in Islam). I did not say that Chinese culture was inferior, wrong or anything else, so why this unprompted mudslinging?
What I said was that Chinese Culture is fundamentally different from Northern European/American culture and as such it is difficult to draw meaningful parralels between them, and it is virtually impossible to understand specific aspects of Chinese culture by observing them in isolation through the filter of a Western upbringing with Western ideas. What exactly is wong, inaccurate, close minded or racist about that statement? If I showed you an unsoldered piece of circuit board would you be able to appreciate what it did if you didn't have a detailed understanding of computers?

[lunghushan]

Get of your soapbox a minute there. Chinese culture is by definition alien in that it is not mine and does not have an overlap with my own heritage. If you think that studying CMA and eating Chinese food gives you some deep insight into Chinese culture then you are deluded. I am not living inside my own little box, and yes I did take comparitive religion classes (but I majored in Islam). I did not say that Chinese culture was inferior, wrong or anything else, so why this unprompted mudslinging?
What I said was that Chinese Culture is fundamentally different from Northern European/American culture and as such it is difficult to draw meaningful parralels between them, and it is virtually impossible to understand specific aspects of Chinese culture by observing them in isolation through the filter of a Western upbringing with Western ideas. What exactly is wong, inaccurate, close minded or racist about that statement? If I showed you an unsoldered piece of circuit board would you be able to appreciate what it did if you didn't have a detailed understanding of computers?

An unsoldered piece of circuit board isn't going to do anything without some components on it. I'm not saying you're racist or anything or even on a soapbox.

I just don't understand people who are saying these cultures are so alien, but maybe it's just because I didn't grow up in the Midwest or somewhere that there were only white people. Or maybe because I grew up with a sifu who was Chinese -- I have no idea.

In fact, I think that modern Chinese from the PRC are kindof clueless as to Chinese culture. Definitely by their cooking, they have no idea what decent Chinese food is.

[mantis108]

I think Fu-Pow and Ben Gash gave pretty on the level replies.

About some problems of the article:

In the "spirit" of Colbert Report's segment "the Word"

Yin Yang

1) God is Unchanged

translation: fundamentalists' ideology of ultra-conservatisim dressed in a pseudo- theological statement.

2) Reincarnation is non sense

translation: I refused to believe that I might have a soul that is indestructable and as long as "IT" exists "I" have little to no control of what "IT" can eventually attached onto. In other words, I am as divine as my brother Jesus and perphas even my Father. Why do I need a prophet or a priest for that matter to tell me that is not so?

3) Sex is sinful

translation: Procreation is God's (male gender) business. There is no equal partnership in that business. Recreational use of sex is out of the question (unless of course HE sanctions ploygamy)

That my friends is the word Yin Ying to the self proclaimed born again believer (don't get any funny "idea" about reincarnation right?)

Mantis108

PS Ben Gash, what would your view be about the sermon of 5 cakes and 2 fish? I am just curious, thanks.

[CLFNole]

If you live with chinese people long enough you will begin to realize that we are not as different as you might think. I am from Italian hertiage and there is a lot of commonalities with chinese culture in terms of family and other areas. The fundamentals are not that different and there are differences as from any heritage to another.

The whole religion thing will always bring out people who are extreme in their beliefs. This whole thread is just wrong to begin with as kung fu and religion should not really be mixed. Respecting elders and respecting tradition does not translate into changing someone's religious beliefs.

[qiphlow]

god never went to church

[MonkeyKingUSA]

If you have read my latest thread on FeemonOng's Saved Formula's you knowmthat I love the Southern Sytems of the Martial Arts....but stopped practicing because of the religious ties that cannot be seperated in the Traditional Schools...where honor is paid to Chinese Deities and Past Masters.

Does anyone know of a School in Northeast Ohio where one can learn the Martial Arts without the Buddhist and other religious Ceremonies, ties and disguised "worship" of spirits .

I am a born-again believer...and contrary to one of my first question to my first teacher as to whether I could obtain a Black Sash ( 10 years ) WITHOUT compromising my strict conservative christian faith...I found out he mislead me ( probabley out of ignorance) and there WERE many, many Statues, Occult Symbols and Buddhist practices the higher you advanced.

I am NOT trying to push my beliefs down anyones throat....but If anyone knows of a School where the teacher is a born-again christian that would be the Ultimate!!!!! Even if the teacher is neutral...but is aware of the Occult Practices that go along with many Styles, and leaves them out of training....That is for me!

Thanks in advance....and I hope I didnt offend anyone

JD

Is being a born-again Christian and an Ordained Christian Minister enough? If so, stop on by.

[Samurai Jack]

Why not learn from the man HIMSELF?

[golden arhat]

An unsoldered piece of circuit board isn't going to do anything without some components on it. I'm not saying you're racist or anything or even on a soapbox.

I just don't understand people who are saying these cultures are so alien, but maybe it's just because I didn't grow up in the Midwest or somewhere that there were only white people. Or maybe because I grew up with a sifu who was Chinese -- I have no idea.

.

ben lives in swinton quite a big town actually

[Old Tiger]

People say that Christians are intolerants, and someone even said it here. JDK ask for a simple request for some Christian MA schools and he even stated that he is not pushing his beliefs onto people, but there sure was a lot of bashing on Christianity on this thread. So where is your 'tolerants' for JDK or other Christian belief? I do understand that some of the things said about fundamentalists, fundies or whatever, are the fault of the fundamentalists themselves, but that is another discussion that I won't get into now.

As for some of the things in chinese culture, some of the rituals are religious and some are not. Jon Heung / burning incense can be view as paying respect to ancestors but can also view as religious where the person call upon their ancestor spirits to bring on good luck or to help out on some requests. Burning incense to Kwan Gung and other deities definitely takes on religious meaning. The Yin/Yang symbol and many of Buddhist teachings don't take on religious meaning, but some Buddhist meaning do. Buddhist wants to reach a point of nirvana (or whatever the word is) where they can reach a point of immortal, instead of being reincarnated as a person or some animals depending upon the deeds they have done while they are here on earth. Some of the symbols that JDK shown are chinese deities which people pray to for help.

As a Chrisitan and chinese, I myself is mindful of what I will or will not do to violate my Christian beliefs. I will bow at the graves of my ancestors to show proper respect. However, I will not burn incense in front of Kwan Gung or any other dieties. I take MA because I feel it as a way to improve health first and foremost, and for self-defense secondary. There is nowhere in the Bible that say you cannot defend yourself. And as someone correctly pointed out, Jesus saying turning one's cheek does not mean just go and let someone beat you senseless.

JDK, my advice to you is that if your conscience bothers you, then go find another place. But when entering a gray area, you can use apostle Paul's advice about food offered to idol in 1 Cor. 8 as a guideline. However, don't use 1 Cor. 8 as an execuse to cover up your conscience. The main point is what is your conscience telling you and just follow your conscience.

[lunghushan]

People say that Christians are intolerants, and someone even said it here. JDK ask for a simple request for some Christian MA schools and he even stated that he is not pushing his beliefs onto people, but there sure was a lot of bashing on Christianity on this thread. So where is your 'tolerants' for JDK or other Christian belief?

I guess as somebody who was raised Christian, and then took martial arts from a Chinese sifu, I was trying to make the point for this person to have some open-ness in his thinking, and perhaps explore and not worry so much about it.

When I first asked my parents to take martial arts, they freaked out and said it was evil and anti-Christian or whatever. Eventually I just went without telling them to somebody who taught out of his garage, and there was nothing evil or anti-Christian about it.

Yes the sifu was Chinese and yes, he had statues of Buddha in his HOUSE, and yes he did burn incense sometimes in the garage to get rid of the sweaty SMELL ... lol

Last I checked Catholics had something called a censer and they burn incense in mass.

That is all. Why not be more open and tolerant in your thinking? Why judge others as being evil? That is all.

I should add that there is one school that I quit because they tried to teach martial arts along with some sort of Buddhism, and that was New York Budo. I think that martial arts should be agnostic and I think you will find that most martial arts places do not mix religion with martial arts.

[Shaolinlueb]

ok i hate these arguements. if you are really a "christian" you know god is all knowing. he knows that you are bowing for respect, burning insence out of respect. he knows you're not worshiping these gods. he knows you still love him.

so jsut go train. bow as a sign of respect. nothing wrong with learning other cultures. i never had my sifu or other classmates to worship this or study that. sure i read buddhist texts but jesus preached a lot of the same stuff. religion is all the same, we just worship different gods. except the muslims and christians its the same god .

just go train and have fun. if the guy asks you to worship, find another school where you feal comfortable.

i hate the new born christian, i have had more of those people try to convert me and get me to go to their church, then i have had buddhists, muslims, and catholics combined.

i'm actually going to agree with lungushuns post,
catholic church does burn incense of a sort during masses.

[mantis108]

Have you ever at least consider the practical aspect of burning incense instead of just buying the preachers' line of burning incense is an "evil" act?

Once upon a time, especially in the west people seldom bathe and there is hygenic problem when masses gather (couching and such). The fire and smoke help to reduce the risk of airborne deseases. Incenses are also expensive stuff and hard to come by. So the nobles, who are often patrons of the Churches or temples, would like to show off their "contributions" to the ritual rites by burning incense and their subjects would appreciate their "lords" on earth while worshipping the Lord in Heaven.

It is one thing to be a montheist but it's quite another to be an idle minded person (Chinese or otherwise) to be dubed by doctrine. If God gives us a brian (unless you view it as another Satan's device), I say let's use it properly.

Mantis108

[lunghushan]

Have you ever at least consider the practical aspect of burning incense instead of just buying the preachers' line of burning incense is an "evil" act?

Once upon a time, especially in the west people seldom bathe and there is hygenic problem when masses gather (couching and such). The fire and smoke help to reduce the risk of airborne deseases.

Mantis108

Or in other words, Europeans were a smelly bunch. LOL

No, seriously, get a large group of people in a room for a long time and it stinks. In the protestant church we would be constantly munching on tic-tacs, and stuff.

Not to mention that in the Bible, the Three Wise Men bring the baby Jesus what? Anybody? Gold, Frankincense and Myrrh. What is in those censers?

[Old Tiger]

I'm assuming the comment about burning incense is in response to my post. There is nothing wrong with burning incense for fragrant. However, why should I go and burn incense to Kwan Gung, when Kwan Gung is not my ancestor nor do I view him as a deity. As I said before, in the chinese culture, when they burn incense to Kwan Gung or other non-ancestor, they are doing it for a religious purppose, not for showing respect. In addition, no where in my post did I tell people not to burn incense nor did I tell anyone not to do anything. I just said what I would not do. But then I'm ask why can't I be tolerant and be more open minded. Again, I don't know if that was a response to my post or not. I apologies if it was not.

As for Catholics and censer? What is the purpose of censer? Isn't it for some type of religious purpose more than just to keep a room from smelling bad? This is a legit question, because I'm not Catholic and we don't practice burning incense or anything like that in our church and I don't want to jump to the wrong conclusion.

[BruceSteveRoy]

i stopped reading the posts after the first page but i have always had a question for people that are are so turned off/offended/ or otherwise put out by the fact that there may be an element of buddhist philosophy in martial arts. the question is are you so in doubt of your faith that you can't study kung fu from someone whose philosophy is different than yours? i mean that with all due respect. it seems to me that if your faith in your religion is strong enough that it shouldn't matter what the school or sifu's personal beliefs are even if they are displayed in the school. i have also heard people say 'well they have buddha statues in their school.' but so do most chinese restaurants. never stopped them from eating there.

and regarding your definition of the occult:

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
oc·cult /əˈkʌlt, ˈɒkʌlt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uh-kuhlt, ok-uhlt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. of or pertaining to magic, astrology, or any system claiming use or knowledge of secret or supernatural powers or agencies.
2. beyond the range of ordinary knowledge or understanding; mysterious.
3. secret; disclosed or communicated only to the initiated.
4. hidden from view.
5. (in early science)
a. not apparent on mere inspection but discoverable by experimentation.
b. of a nature not understood, as physical qualities.
c. dealing with such qualities; experimental: occult science.
6. Medicine/Medical. present in amounts too small to be visible: a chemical test to detect occult blood in the stool.
–noun
7. the supernatural or supernatural agencies and affairs considered as a whole (usually prec. by the).
8. occult studies or sciences (usually prec. by the).
–verb (used with object)
9. to block or shut off (an object) from view; hide.
10. Astronomy. to hide (a celestial body) by occultation.
–verb (used without object)
11. to become hidden or shut off from view.

the dictionary lists definitions in an order that shows the mostly commonly accepted meaning first and least common last. i have heard church people use this word and than give the definition you did. its a subtle form of manipulation of the language. for the most part people use the occult and are making an implication or even accusation. knowing the whole time what it would come across meaning.


i would also encourage you to read the book living buddha, living christ.
its a comparative religions book.