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  1. #31
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    Ban the Tard BAN THE TARD BAN THE TARD

    Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard
    Bless you

  2. #32
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    to hinokata ya i have been in street fights more than a few times and not with drunks so i know what would work . and thats the bascis all ways works the best. i said it before i wouldnt want one of his friends hitting me when iam trying to wrap him up because that would happen nine times out of ten
    Last edited by msg; 01-18-2007 at 02:29 PM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg View Post
    to hinokata ya i have been in street fights more than a few times and not with drunks so i know what would work . and thats the bascis all ways works the best. i said it before i wouldnt want one of his friends hitting me when iam trying to wrap him up because that would happen nine times out of ten
    I guess we shall have to agree to disagree, and I personally disagree with most of your post because I think that information is flat out wrong. To each his own and good luck to you in any future excurisons you may have.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by hinokata View Post

    ...there is a large variety of grappling techniques that can be applied while standing, not to mention if you get pinned to a wall/table/whatever. I do agree that groundfighting is should be avoided in a street fight if at all possible....

    ...With striking you need to learn how to get around their defense and pick points that are open to your attacks and then strike them. With grappling, you need to be able to determine if you are most likely going to be able to get that grab and apply your technique...
    Well said Hinokata, well said.

    I have seen enough fights to know that, people involved with the "jump up and down and punch and kick" fights usually ended up with bruises, cuts, bloody noses and usually NOT hospitalized. The most brutal ones usually involve rumbles where multiple people are involved where people are grabbed, pinned, smashed etc where grappling type of skills gives you a better chance to get out of and run.

    One of the BJJ instructors where I teach can basically pick you up, turn you upside down and smash you on the ground in a split second while he remains standing. So he may take a couple of hits in the process; but one can survive hits easily, but being slammed on concrete is no fun.

    Movies tend to make it looks like it is so easy to knock someone out in one hit (we've all seen Jet Li doing it when faced with multiple attackers), stop an attacker with one stab of the knife, or shoot someone down with one bullet. In reality it is dangerous to have such misconceptions.

    So, in my opinion, it is not just "How strong is the punch" that matters. Of course a powerful punch is important, but also how safe, how likely to be countered, how easy to flow into other techniques, etc. To me, the best strike would be one that's protective, powerful, and can be continued into a break/lock and a throw, and gives you the option to run. Sounds too good to be true? No. There are such techniques in Aikido, Tian Style Bagua and of course Tai Chi just to name a few.

    Cheers,
    John
    Dr. J Fung
    www.kulowingchun.com

    "打得好就詠春,打得唔好就dum春"

  5. #35
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    Apples and oranges

    Quote Originally Posted by Jingwu Man View Post
    Like Jet Li said in Fearless "The true battle is with one's self"
    I myself have no reason to enter competitions, and I guess I take after my teacher in that regard. He is probably the most dangerous person I have ever met, but he is also the nicest. He is always smiling, and will walk away rather than fight. After a certain point, you know what you are capable of, and don't need to cross hands anymore, or avoid it to spare others injury.
    Jingwu Man echoes my feelings: The most dangerous men I've known have been some of the nicest, and slowest to take offense/fight over ego. I practice and teach martial arts to try to be like them: in order to master my own ego and temper, and to help kids do the same. At the same time, it is good to know that street applications are there in an emergency. This is much different from sport fighting, where the object is besting someone else, and dare I say, maybe often for the purpose of feeding the ego.

  6. #36
    One could just as easily ask why those who compete in MMA don’t compete in combat shooting, quick draw competitions, sword fighting or knife fights. Getting shot, surreptitiously stabbed or clubbed from behind will negate all one's years of training anyway. People train according to their interests and personal goals. Nothing is completely effective in every circumstance. If an individual is measuring his manliness according to his ability to grapple then he may find himself shot, clubbed from behind or gang stomped.

    MMA are duels! Duels are NOT accurate facsimiles of real life self-defense situations. That is not to negate the value of grappling skills, but the REAL world is more than the primarily grappling skills displayed in MMA duels. These are tactical wrestling exhibitions where competitors have plenty of time to wear each other down. Much of it is a chess game where competitors don’t have to worry about being stomped in the head by someone else while rolling around on the ground in an otherwise vulnerable position.

    Real world duels occur mostly in school where egos and childish attitudes prevail, bar/drunk fights and some peace officer situations. These are the areas where grappling skills are beneficial. Police and Correctional Officers benefit greatly from some experience in grappling, but try taking your MMA and grappling skills to a gang shoot out and see how long you will survive.

    Train according to the perceived danger you expect to encounter and your personal goals and interests. But also understand that no one can be prepared for every single possible form of attack. If one needed to take someone out permanently strategy is more than important than skill. A well devised strategic plan attacks the individual’s weakness, not his strength. Therefore you do not grapple a grappler unless you are clearly superior. Even if you did grapple a grappler it would be a waste of energy when all it takes is some poison, a club from behind, a gun etc.

    Most bad guys are not interested in rolling around with you on the ground. They want what you got and they want to get away quickly, or they just want to kill you. Rolling around on the ground wastes time and energy. Any other encounter is most likely motivated by ego and/or substance abuse. A mature individual, aside from Peace Officers, Security Officers and Bouncers will seek to avoid this types of encounter.

    In his younger days Rick Avery had a martial arts studio in Santa Barbara CA. It was either kempo or kenpo (I can never keep them straight). Any way, he was also a Sheriff and was known for using excessive force and generally being an a**hole. Eventually he was ambushed by some High School kids with baseball bats who were tired of his attitude. He was a trained martial artist, an officer of the law, carrying a gun, a baton and mace. They sent him to the hospital.

    Everyone is vulnerable to a well thought out attack, even MMA’s! Or perhaps especially MMA's because they spend so much time practicing skills that make them vulnerable in REAL life and death situations. Take half the time they train on the ground and devote it to developing evasion skills and gun or knife skills and the time would be better spent.

  7. #37
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    thank you scott.r brown for under standing what i was trying to say .i was not trying to say any thing negative of any art .just replying to the topic street/reality fighting .key word street.i hope i did not offend any body that ws not my intent

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post
    Nothing is completely effective in every circumstance. If an individual is measuring his manliness according to his ability to grapple then he may find himself shot, clubbed from behind or gang stomped.
    I believe you are missing my point altogether. I am not advocating grappling as the be-all end-all form of self defense. Nor was I saying that it should be your first form of defense, etc. What I am saying, is that neglecting an area of training such as grappling is going to leave you in a trouble spot if you get grabbed or pinned. Additionally, you can just as easily be clubbed from behind while trying to play the 100% standup game.

    MMA are duels! Duels are NOT accurate facsimiles of real life self-defense situations. That is not to negate the value of grappling skills, but the REAL world is more than the primarily grappling skills displayed in MMA duels. These are tactical wrestling exhibitions where competitors have plenty of time to wear each other down. Much of it is a chess game where competitors don’t have to worry about being stomped in the head by someone else while rolling around on the ground in an otherwise vulnerable position.
    Do not confuse grappling with groundfighting, as they are not one and the same. I agree 100% that it is a very bad idea to go rolling around on the ground with an opponent in a street fight. Besides all the reasons mentioned in previous posts, you never know what is on the ground, like broken glass, syringes, etc.

    ... but try taking your MMA and grappling skills to a gang shoot out and see how long you will survive.
    I'm sorry, but this is just a VERY silly example. First of all, WHY would you be in some sort of gang shoot out to begin with? And if it's because your part of one of the gangs, then chances are you have your own gun. Secondly, you could easily replace grappling with striking, swordsmanship, staff, whatever and still come out badly. It is somewhat like the old saying, never bring a knife to a gun fight.

    Train according to the perceived danger you expect to encounter and your personal goals and interests. But also understand that no one can be prepared for every single possible form of attack.
    I agree with your above statement but I would like to add that if you are strictly training for sport/comps, then yes, only do what you want to do. If you are training with self-dense in mind, IMO it is very foolish to ignore a very valid part of training, even if you don't/can't see the value of it. It's in the art for a reason.

    If one needed to take someone out permanently strategy is more than important than skill.
    Please define permanently, because that seems to provide a one way ticket to prison.

    A well devised strategic plan attacks the individual’s weakness, not his strength. Therefore you do not grapple a grappler unless you are clearly superior. Even if you did grapple a grappler it would be a waste of energy when all it takes is some poison, a club from behind, a gun etc.
    You're talking about ways that are potentially lethal, and not too mention will get you thrown in jail. Poison? Another really bad example. We were talking about self-defense, not pre-meditated murder. Using the methods you describe, yes, you defend yourself, but now you spend a nice chunk of time in jail, get a criminal record, and pretty much screw up the rest of your life.

    Most bad guys are not interested in rolling around with you on the ground. They want what you got and they want to get away quickly, or they just want to kill you. Rolling around on the ground wastes time and energy. Any other encounter is most likely motivated by ego and/or substance abuse. A mature individual, aside from Peace Officers, Security Officers and Bouncers will seek to avoid this types of encounter.
    One could argue that a mature individual will seek to avoid all types of street type encounters. Again, you are confusing grappling and groundfighting. I would also argue that officers/bouncers will try to avoid that encounter as well, but they may have to deal with it because of their position to protect the public.

  9. #39
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    Quote:
    ... but try taking your MMA and grappling skills to a gang shoot out and see how long you will survive.

    I'm sorry, but this is just a VERY silly example. First of all, WHY would you be in some sort of gang shoot out to begin with?
    __________

    Actually, my work teaching many gang kids has put me in this situation more than once. The reaon I've come out the other side? Just wasn't a bullet with my name on it on those days. Also, have always (17 years) tried to help these kids (treat with dignity and some humility), so maybe a small measure of respect was returned to me as I know on a couple of occasions, they did not shoot at rivals who were in my proximity because I was standing there.

    __________
    Quote:
    MMA are duels! Duels are NOT accurate facsimiles of real life self-defense situations. That is not to negate the value of grappling skills, but the REAL world is more than the primarily grappling skills displayed in MMA duels.

    __________

    Agree! And not just MMA, but all sparring--not that it doesn't have a place, but that place is not too profitable for preparation for the street.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidswarrior View Post
    Actually, my work teaching many gang kids has put me in this situation more than once. The reaon I've come out the other side? Just wasn't a bullet with my name on it on those days. Also, have always (17 years) tried to help these kids (treat with dignity and some humility), so maybe a small measure of respect was returned to me as I know on a couple of occasions, they did not shoot at rivals who were in my proximity because I was standing there.
    I stand corrected. I really hope you reach the majority of kids you work with. I know first hand that respect goes a VERY long ways with gang members, so you may just be right about them not shooting at rivals near you. I have found that many times people tend to forget the human aspect of gang members and automatically lump them under thug and treat them like animals. While some of them are violent by choice, many of them are "forced" into it by either peer pressure, family ties, the sense of belonging, revenge, or just hoping to increase their odds of survival. Good luck with your work.


    .... returning to the topic now ......

  11. #41
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    I must say that in relation to "real" street fighting and how well CMA works against opponents of your size or larger...the real answer is who knows. There is nothing that can prepare you for that first fight that changes your life, the one fight that you will be scared ****less, the first fight is going to be your worst fight as most of us only train for the situation but are never ready to experience. I can discuss theory and effective/ineffective physics/dynamics of certain styles/MMA/Kung Fu or what ever...but I am not going to.

    The simple answer that others have concluded, is will you get the hit/strike/grapple nescessary to prevent a person from taking your life. I don't know, I continue to train to never encounter another situation like that as one really learns martial arts and fight to really not fight because it is a scary and brutal thing: the real fight when you feel your life in jeopardy, I would do all I can to kill/cripple/maim the attack as fast as I can (and most arts teach this more or less). There is a big factor that any art cannot really prepare a person for which is luck. The luck of the situation, what if you got unlucky and didn't get your strike in or if there was another person that comes behind you, a gun involved, or knife pulled out suddenly. As luck can work against you, it can work in your favor and the training you have done prompted you to connect your strikes/techniques to defend and attack your aggressor. It all matters on luck and the first hit in my opinion. I train in a Kung Fu/Muay Thai hybrid and make sure to cover the basics everyday, as I believe the basics of most arts are the same: thats what saves you in real life basics...the thing teachers made you practice until you can do them in your sleep.
    "Don't Focus on the Fingers or You will miss all the Heavenly Glory!"

    Morbicid-"Maybe some moves are made just so that, if u somehow manage to pull them off in a fight, u get some serious bragging rights.

    Many famous fighters have done this (roy jones jr, chuck norris, Morbicid, etc)"

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by hinokata View Post
    I stand corrected. I really hope you reach the majority of kids you work with. I know first hand that respect goes a VERY long ways with gang members, so you may just be right about them not shooting at rivals near you. I have found that many times people tend to forget the human aspect of gang members and automatically lump them under thug and treat them like animals. While some of them are violent by choice, many of them are "forced" into it by either peer pressure, family ties, the sense of belonging, revenge, or just hoping to increase their odds of survival. Good luck with your work.


    .... returning to the topic now ......
    Thanks, Hinokata. Most people don't 'get it' as you obviously do. Didn't mean to take us off topic.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by hinokata View Post
    Please define permanently, because that seems to provide a one way ticket to prison.



    You're talking about ways that are potentially lethal, and not too mention will get you thrown in jail. Poison? Another really bad example. We were talking about self-defense, not pre-meditated murder. Using the methods you describe, yes, you defend yourself, but now you spend a nice chunk of time in jail, get a criminal record, and pretty much screw up the rest of your life.



    One could argue that a mature individual will seek to avoid all types of street type encounters. Again, you are confusing grappling and groundfighting. I would also argue that officers/bouncers will try to avoid that encounter as well, but they may have to deal with it because of their position to protect the public.

    And I meant (before I ran out of time--work was calling) to say YES, YES, YES to these sentiments. Personally, for example, I am very careful to build in to my MA instruction that we must live with the consequences of 'winning' a fight. And if we aren't very, very careful, that could mean jail, prison, catching a deadly disease by swapping bodily fluids (blood, saliva) with the 'loser', and civil suits when he or his family later claims we cheated because we've studied the Arts.

    I've never regretted walking away and checking my ego, but almost always regretted the times I did not (mostly in the past, now--but with road rage, 'roid rage, etc., there are always plenty of new choices to make: to feed my ego, or to walk away from someone living on the edge).

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post

    If one needed to take someone out permanently strategy is more than important than skill.
    Yes. Miyamoto Musashi was undefeated not just through his physical techniques, but his strategies.

    A good fighter can only defeat 10 enemies, a good strategist can defeat a whole army.

    Cheers,
    John
    Dr. J Fung
    www.kulowingchun.com

    "打得好就詠春,打得唔好就dum春"

  15. #45
    Hi hinokata,

    I believe you are missing my point altogether. I am not advocating grappling as the be-all end-all form of self defense. Nor was I saying that it should be your first form of defense, etc. What I am saying, is that neglecting an area of training such as grappling is going to leave you in a trouble spot if you get grabbed or pinned. Additionally, you can just as easily be clubbed from behind while trying to play the 100% standup game.

    Actually I was not directly addressing your post, but making general comments. I actually agree with you here.

    Do not confuse grappling with groundfighting, as they are not one and the same. I agree 100% that it is a very bad idea to go rolling around on the ground with an opponent in a street fight. Besides all the reasons mentioned in previous posts, you never know what is on the ground, like broken glass, syringes, etc.

    Thank you for the admonition. I do not confuse the two, but I believe many individuals consider grappling a strictly ground fighting circumstance. It is to those people my comments were directed.

    Me:

    ... but try taking your MMA and grappling skills to a gang shoot out and see how long you will survive.



    You:

    I'm sorry, but this is just a VERY silly example. First of all, WHY would you be in some sort of gang shoot out to begin with? And if it's because your part of one of the gangs, then chances are you have your own gun. Secondly, you could easily replace grappling with striking, swordsmanship, staff, whatever and still come out badly. It is somewhat like the old saying, never bring a knife to a gun fight.


    I was using hyperbole here to illustrate extremely dangerous situations with seemingly overwhelming odds. The underlying point of my post was that MMA, specifically grappling, is not the “be all” of self-defense. This is the implication intended by many who ask the question underlying the original post of this thread.

    In the real world fights are not always duels with a context of rules to guide them. Commonly, it is he who is the most brutal first that often wins the fight. Having said that and also having made the previous comments I have: I knew a man years ago who was clubbed in the head from behind with a baseball bat. This was a very a very good strategy; however he turned around a trashed his assailant. So no principle, tactic, strategy or method works in all circumstances.

    Me:

    If one needed to take someone out permanently strategy is more than important than skill.



    You:

    Please define permanently, because that seems to provide a one way ticket to prison.


    Of course it does, and herein lies the problem for civilized persons. While the civilized care about the consequences of their actions, socio-paths commonly do not. While they are acting brutally to you, you are attempting to defend yourself without incurring legal ramifications. This puts the civilized person at a distinct disadvantage.

    Permanently here can mean: to the point where you and/or others are no longer in danger. It includes: to kill, to maim, to incapacitate or to restrain, according to the circumstances and individual ability. It applies to the civilized and the brutal person. If you REALLY want to win in combat, then being the most brutal the soonest is your best bet!

    Overwhelming brutality is a strategic principle. It is an amoral principle from the perspective of simply winning the altercation. If your goal is to win then the most brutal the soonest has the highest percentage opportunity for success under most circumstances. I am not proposing this principle, I am merely stating it as a principle of fighting that observation and experience has made apparent. A simple example would be Mike Tyson in his early years. He was the most brutal the soonest in his fights and the fights were won quickly and decisively. However, this principle applies to all forms of combat, from duels to battles between armies, from our historical period to ancient battles. It is a well known and applied principle used to increase the opportunity for success in combat.

    Me:

    A well devised strategic plan attacks the individual’s weakness, not his strength. Therefore you do not grapple a grappler unless you are clearly superior. Even if you did grapple a grappler it would be a waste of energy when all it takes is some poison, a club from behind, a gun etc.


    You:

    You're talking about ways that are potentially lethal, and not too mention will get you thrown in jail. Poison? Another really bad example. We were talking about self-defense, not pre-meditated murder. Using the methods you describe, yes, you defend yourself, but now you spend a nice chunk of time in jail, get a criminal record, and pretty much screw up the rest of your life.


    Again hyperbole used to illustrate that unexpected and brutal methods are the most efficient. Don’t underestimate your enemy is the point here and don’t underestimate your opportunities to overcome your opponent using unconventional means. Don’t underestimate the brutality or unexpected means to which a socio-path is willing to use in an encounter. Sociopaths don’t care about going to prison. This is their strength. You may be afraid to go to prison, this is your weakness.

    I am not advocating these methods. However, a careful study of strategy and tactics requires us to consider them. One of the reasons Samurai hated Ninjas so much was because the Ninja only cared about winning, not winning according to some principle of fair play. Therefore, they would not meet force with force unless it was absolutely necessary. Many Samurai restricted their efficiency and ability by conforming to a specific code of conduct in combat. To the mind of many Samurai the Ninja was a cheater because he didn’t play by the Samurai’s preconceived notions of fair combat. This was the Samurai’s weakness and the Ninja’s strength.

    Historically speaking, it is those who have used tactics the enemy has not considered and therefore not considered the need to defend against that have been the superior generals, Alexander, Julius Caesar and Genghis Khan to name a few. And of course Miyamoto Musashi as has been mentioned by Dr. John. Hi John!

    One could argue that a mature individual will seek to avoid all types of street type encounters. Again, you are confusing grappling and groundfighting. I would also argue that officers/bouncers will try to avoid that encounter as well, but they may have to deal with it because of their position to protect the public.

    Of course they will attempt to avoid going to the ground, however the ground is used to control an uncooperative person. I worked in the CA Dept of Corrections for 12 years. ALL uncooperative inmates are taken to the ground. Not most, not many ALL!! If an inmate wants to take out an Officer their first plan of attack will ALWAYS be surreptitious. Not sometimes, not many times ALL THE TIME!!

    My perspective on this topic comes from my years working around, talking to, and observing prison inmates. These are the sociopaths that will kill for a dime and rape your dead body. They do not play by the rules of civilized combat. They play to WIN!! This MUST be considered when one is talking about MMA or any other type of self-defense system as the ultimate means or even the best means available. An idiot with no MMA experience and a gun or a baseball bat can easily neutralized the toughest, meanest, best trained person around. No method is the best. It is the best according to a specific context. Change the context and all the years of training, sweating and thinking you are a bad dude can be snuffed out in a second. The only thing left on your face is an amazed disbelief that you could be taken out so easily.

    These comments are not addressed to you specifically, but to anyone who thinks that any method of self-defense is the best or that some other method is useless. It does not take any self-defense/fighting experience to take a person out. All it takes is a strategic and devious mind. It is important to keep this in mind if a person is attempting to fight or train to address their feelings of insecurity or boost their ego. It is my impression that many who want to poo poo traditional arts for not competing in MMA tournaments have a misguided impression of the realities of life concerning real life combat and the extent to which sociopaths will go to hurt you and take what is yours. So my purpose here has been to bring some real life into the discussion.
    Last edited by Scott R. Brown; 01-25-2007 at 03:19 AM.

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