need an honest answer

[hinokata]

Actually I was not directly addressing your post, but making general comments. I actually agree with you here.

My mistake.

Thank you for the admonition. I do not confuse the two, but I believe many individuals consider grappling a strictly ground fighting circumstance. It is to those people my comments were directed.

Apparently, my mistake again.

I was using hyperbole here to illustrate extremely dangerous situations with seemingly overwhelming odds. The underlying point of my post was that MMA, specifically grappling, is not the “be all” of self-defense. This is the implication intended by many who ask the question underlying the original post of this thread.

Fair enough. I'm sure those that know you understood your point, however since I am new I took your post at face value.

Of course it does, and herein lies the problem for civilized persons. While the civilized care about the consequences of their actions, socio-paths commonly do not. While they are acting brutally to you, you are attempting to defend yourself without incurring legal ramifications. This puts the civilized person at a distinct disadvantage.

I agree.

Again hyperbole used to illustrate that unexpected and brutal methods are the most efficient. Don’t underestimate your enemy is the point here and don’t underestimate your opportunities to overcome your opponent using unconventional means. Don’t underestimate the brutality or unexpected means to which a socio-path is willing to use in an encounter. Sociopaths don’t care about going to prison. This is their strength. You may be afraid to go to prison, this is your weakness.

I understand your point, but I don't personally agree that not wanting to go to prison is a weakness. I think it will re-enforce non-lethal and more humane techniques up and to the point that it comes where it is either you or him. When all of your other options have been removed, IMO, then and only then should you consider lethal and/or crippling techniques. If you start of with the pure brutality that the sociopath is most likely using, what really makes you any different than him?

I am not advocating these methods. However, a careful study of strategy and tactics requires us to consider them. One of the reasons Samurai hated Ninjas so much was because the Ninja only cared about winning, not winning according to some principle of fair play. Therefore, they would not meet force with force unless it was absolutely necessary. Many Samurai restricted their efficiency and ability by conforming to a specific code of conduct in combat. To the mind of many Samurai the Ninja was a cheater because he didn’t play by the Samurai’s preconceived notions of fair combat. This was the Samurai’s weakness and the Ninja’s strength.

Yes, Ninjas were generally viewed as cowards and honorless by the Samurai due the win at any cost using any means available tactics the ninja would use (ex: poison under the fingernails or on their blades, ambushing, traps, etc). One of the tenets still practiced in ninjutsu is that any time there is contact from your enemy, it could be fatal (for the reasons stated above), so many of the techniques dodge/evade attacks instead of purely block.

My perspective on this topic comes from my years working around, talking to, and observing prison inmates. These are the sociopaths that will kill for a dime and rape your dead body. They do not play by the rules of civilized combat. They play to WIN!! This MUST be considered when one is talking about MMA or any other type of self-defense system as the ultimate means or even the best means available.

A very good point.

An idiot with no MMA experience and a gun or a baseball bat can easily neutralized the toughest, meanest, best trained person around. No method is the best. It is the best according to a specific context. Change the context and all the years of training, sweating and thinking you are a bad dude can be snuffed out in a second. The only thing left on your face is an amazed disbelief that you could be taken out so easily.

Another good point, although I would disagree that the idiot with the baseball bat could easily take out a well trained martial artist (assuming the martial artist was not caught unawares). I'm not saying that it wouldn't happen, just that it wouldn't be easy.

These comments are not addressed to you specifically, but to anyone who thinks that any method of self-defense is the best or that some other method is useless.

Understood.

It does not take any self-defense/fighting experience to take a person out. All it takes is a strategic and devious mind. It is important to keep this in mind if a person is attempting to fight or train to address their feelings of insecurity or boost their ego. It is my impression that many who want to poo poo traditional arts for not competing in MMA tournaments have a misguided impression of the realities of life concerning real life combat and the extent to which sociopaths will go to hurt you and take what is yours. So my purpose here has been to bring some real life into the discussion.

While I do not agree with you completely, you did bring some very good and valid points to the discussion and I for one, appreciate the debate.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi hinokata,

“Not wanting to go to prison” is a weakness tactically, not morally. Tactically speaking someone who is not willing to risk prison will limit the types of responses they are willing to use in an altercation. They will be controlling their actions so as to not go to far. They are limited by their self-restraint. So while you are trying to use contoled methods against your opponent, he could be using every trick in the book. This puts you at a distinct disadvantage and is thus a weakness when looked at from the point of view of winning safely and efficiently.

“Idiot” in this case is an expression not intended to mean, “one with low intelligence”, but “one who wants to hurt you”. If he is a sociopath with an amoral, devious and tactical mind he would not fight a trained MA face to face. Remember my comment about inmates using surreptitious means to attack Officers? Well this applies to attacking other inmates/people as well. The purpose of the sociopath is to succeed at their goal with the minimum amount of risk to themselves while maximizing their opportunity for success. Face to face encounters are NOT tactically efficient. Remember the context of the rest of my post, hide and hit from behind, or some other devious, underhanded means. So the idiot with a baseball bat would attack from behind and perhaps use other tactics to increase his advantage as well.

You see many people think of fights in terms of a duel; Mano e mano according to some kind of rules. They usually don’t have insight into the fact that they have these preconceived notions of how a fight should or will be conducted and this is a weakness. Even today’s NHB fights have rules and occur according to a fixed context. These venues tend to fix in the mind of the novice a specific pattern or context a fight will or should follow. This is a weakness when it comes to fighting an experienced sociopath whose only rule is to win. He will fight without remorse and without fear of the consequences. This is a strength or asset when it comes to combat. A fight with a real criminal/sociopath would wake up these novices to the REAL world of combat where the opponent goes balls out to hurt, maim or kill you without feeling any remorse, using any and all means possible, and will fight NOT according to any fixed context.

[kidswarrior]

Scott,

I have a much better understanding of where you're coming from after this explanation. And agree with most of the underlying principles, now that I know what your intentions were. Thanks for going the extra mile to clear it up.

PS: I work with teens some of whom are at the critical point in their lives which will determine whether they will become career criminals (and so more 'clients' for Dept of Corrections) or productive citizens. Deal daily with some of the behaviors/mindsets you mentioned.

--KW

[hinokata]

Hello Scott,

“Not wanting to go to prison” is a weakness tactically, not morally. Tactically speaking someone who is not willing to risk prison will limit the types of responses they are willing to use in an altercation. They will be controlling their actions so as to not go to far. They are limited by their self-restraint. So while you are trying to use contoled methods against your opponent, he could be using every trick in the book. This puts you at a distinct disadvantage and is thus a weakness when looked at from the point of view of winning safely and efficiently.

I understood what you meant in this regard, but I still do not completely agree. You make your point well, but we just have differing opinions on this matter.

“Idiot” in this case is an expression not intended to mean, “one with low intelligence”, but “one who wants to hurt you”.

This was understood.

If he is a sociopath with an amoral, devious and tactical mind he would not fight a trained MA face to face. Remember my comment about inmates using surreptitious means to attack Officers? Well this applies to attacking other inmates/people as well. The purpose of the sociopath is to succeed at their goal with the minimum amount of risk to themselves while maximizing their opportunity for success. Face to face encounters are NOT tactically efficient. Remember the context of the rest of my post, hide and hit from behind, or some other devious, underhanded means. So the idiot with a baseball bat would attack from behind and perhaps use other tactics to increase his advantage as well.

While this is a very good point, I would like to say that the MA should be aware of his surroundings at all times. I know that when I go anywhere I constantly scan for any type of potential threat, escape routes, etc, which should greatly reduce the chances of being caught unawares from behind. I would expect that any MA would do the same. Again, I am not saying that it would not happen, just that it helps even the deck in a manner of speaking.

.... This is a weakness when it comes to fighting an experienced sociopath whose only rule is to win. He will fight without remorse and without fear of the consequences. This is a strength or asset when it comes to combat. A fight with a real criminal/sociopath would wake up these novices to the REAL world of combat where the opponent goes balls out to hurt, maim or kill you without feeling any remorse, using any and all means possible, and will fight NOT according to any fixed context.

Well said.

[lonewolf]

i couldn't agree more. if someone is coming after you or you find yourself surprised by the "idiot" MA won't play a role at first. it would be fight or flight. when you find yourself back in some kind of control or you know what is going on training then can come into play. but over all avoid the idiot.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Most of the people that choose to fight in the ring are usually more athletic and have a naturally aggressive nature. That is a natural fact. They are far from being your average person. These types are going to be difficult to whip, even for someone else like them. The average person would stand little chance. Again, most of the martial arts do not lend themselves to such exploits. Rules, and a pair of gloves would stop most of them. It would all boil down to using brute strength and clubbing your opponent to the mat. I have watched all the more noted fighters and I have not seen what I would deem as skill by any means. They were fast, strong, and fearless. But that is far from showing skill.
Most of the people you find on these forums are armchair kung fu fighters, and have never had a fight. Most never will. They watch too much TV or something. All that jumping around and arm flapping will only get your butt kicked by a decent street fighter. And most of the fighting systems are too dependent upon the practitioner being extremely fit. This is not the case for the average person that might need to defend themselves one day. I find that Jujitsu will make defending yourself easier if you are small and frail. And Wing Chun will prepare you to fight and to enter into your jujitsu technique. If you are strong you can do it even better. I have been doing Wing Chun for near 50 years now, and Jujitsu for over 40 years. I have over 600 variations of jujitsu technique, and my hands are extremely hard. I have trained them for inflicting grave injury. But, I would not put on a pair of gloves and crawl into a ring with some of these fighters mentioned. It would be like going to a knife fight and leaving your knife at home.

[Scott R. Brown]

I work with teens some of whom are at the critical point in their lives which will determine whether they will become career criminals (and so more 'clients' for Dept of Corrections) or productive citizens. Deal daily with some of the behaviors/mindsets you mentioned.

Hi kidswarrior,

I deeply respect your efforts with teens. I have had numerous conversations with young inmates who regretted their gang affiliations and were troubled over their impending parole fearing falling in with the same crowd. It is important that these young men have somewhere to go that will help them develop healthy characteristics. Good Luck!! You have my admiration!

[kidswarrior]

Hi kidswarrior,

I deeply respect your efforts with teens. I have had numerous conversations with young inmates who regretted their gang affiliations and were troubled over their impending parole fearing falling in with the same crowd. It is important that these young men have somewhere to go that will help them develop healthy characteristics. Good Luck!! You have my admiration!

Thanks, Scott. And back atcha'. People are constantly trying to get me to transfer to work at juvenile hall, but being one step removed (getting them before they go in or just as they get out) gives me more of a chance to engender hope in my young charges, that they can still change and make the right choices. My hat's off to you for working in a very difficult environment, and I can picture those conversations you mention. Hang in there--I know you're making a difference. I also believe that for both of us, the study of martial arts bolsters our ability to keep going in the work.
--kidswarrior

[Bagua8]

The reason why Kung Fu masters don't fight in the MMA is because 1:They don't need to fight for money(that's what the ufc is), they already make money teaching and that takes up all their time. 2:their too old and the ufc probably won't let them fight 3:they live in china and are to far away from the ufc and don't want to fly for 10+ hours to get their.

But the main reason is because in order to qualify for the ufc you have to be a well rounded fighter skilled in these three categories: ground n' pound, submission, and hand to hand.

most kung fu maters only qualify for the last two.

[shaolin_allan]

Unfortunately, most people relate what they see in movies and UFC to real fighting. Nothing could be ****her from the truth. Some people do martial arts for demonstrations, some do it for semi contact sparring tournaments, and some do it for ring fighting like UFC.
The truth is real kung fu is meant to help people and only fight if absolutely required to. In a good school light to full contact sparring is practiced with or without gear which allows the students to practice as close to real fighting as possible without the chance of getting severely injured.
Many people who practice kung-fu for the combat side do exercises and training to prepare themselves for real fighting, and do not waste their time on such a confined type of combat with so many rules.
Many UFC fighters don't do it to prove themselves as good fighters, they do it for the money mainly and for the fame also. If they originally started with traditional ways they have now moved onto more type of training like a boxer. Many UFC fighters would do horrible in a real fight because thats not what they train for.
Just like many masters would do poor in UFC because they do not train in a way where they would be used to the confinement of UFC rules.

[SevenStar]

Unfortunately, most people relate what they see in movies and UFC to real fighting. Nothing could be ****her from the truth. Some people do martial arts for demonstrations, some do it for semi contact sparring tournaments, and some do it for ring fighting like UFC.
The truth is real kung fu is meant to help people and only fight if absolutely required to. In a good school light to full contact sparring is practiced with or without gear which allows the students to practice as close to real fighting as possible without the chance of getting severely injured.
Many people who practice kung-fu for the combat side do exercises and training to prepare themselves for real fighting, and do not waste their time on such a confined type of combat with so many rules.

1. training in the kwoon with people you are familiar with is NOT realistic, especially when it's only light to medium contact.

2. full contact with pads is more realistic than light contact without them

3. in competition, you are facing someone who WANTS to knock you out. This is more real than semi contact kwoon sparring with a friend.

4. rules or not, that doesn't inhibit streetfighting. I am a sport guy and also a bouncer in a club. my rule bound sport techniques work just fine.

Many UFC fighters don't do it to prove themselves as good fighters, they do it for the money mainly and for the fame also.

How many pro fighters have told you this? names? IME, it's rare that fighters fight to prove anything to anyone. they may fight for money and largely they fight because they like to compete. competition is the ultimate way to make yourself a better fighter, for various reasons.

If they originally started with traditional ways they have now moved onto more type of training like a boxer. Many UFC fighters would do horrible in a real fight because thats not what they train for.

thanks for telling me that. When I'm at work tomorrow night, I'll remember that I'm supposed to lose because I don't train for streetfights...

Just like many masters would do poor in UFC because they do not train in a way where they would be used to the confinement of UFC rules.

wrong. they lose because they don't train for the venue. in the original ufc and in the old vale tudo, there were few rules (ufc) if any at all (vale tudo), and you still saw losses for most tma. the problem is they didn't have the stamina to fight prolonged rounds and had little to no grappling training. They weren't training for the venue.

[SevenStar]

The reason why Kung Fu masters don't fight in the MMA is because 1:They don't need to fight for money(that's what the ufc is), they already make money teaching and that takes up all their time. 2:their too old and the ufc probably won't let them fight 3:they live in china and are to far away from the ufc and don't want to fly for 10+ hours to get their.

1. that's crap. many fighters don't fight for money. Do you have ANY idea how huge amateur fighting is? and they don't get paid. a non competitor typically can't understand a competitor's reasons for doing what he does. Also, not all CMA teachers teach full time. I know several of them who have second jobs. Teaching does NOT take up all of their time. And even if it did, they could teach their students to fight and compete, no?

2. if they are that old, they would get mauled anyway. the old guys may be able to take untrained fighters but against younger guys who train to fight, the younger guy would stomp him. that's why people stop competing after a certain age.

3. Not all of the masters live in china. Not only that, but they have mma in china. Even if they didn't, the master or his students could compete in san shou.

But the main reason is because in order to qualify for the ufc you have to be a well rounded fighter skilled in these three categories: ground n' pound, submission, and hand to hand.

most kung fu maters only qualify for the last two.

right answer, but wrong skillset for the kung fu master. I don't know of ANY CMA guys, master or non who are known for ground submission skills. chin na yeah, but that's not ground grappling, and it's rare that a standing lock is applied in mma, for various reasons.

[Water-quan]

For all the so called kung fu martial artists out there...can anyone give me an honest answer???

By now I am sure most of you have heard enough stories about how skillful and incredible some kung fu masters are and that kung fu skills can over come external forces coming from bigger opponents etc...you get my point. so my question is for all the greatest kung fu masters and martial artists from all over the world including yourself, why haven't any kung fu man (mantis, tai chi, hung gar, shaolin, choy lay fut, wing chun, xing yi, ba gua, jkd whatever etc...) able to use his skills in the MMA (Mixed Martial Arts tournament) or the Ultimate Fighting Champion??? Is it because of the size, strength, speed or fear or lack of skills or what? Please if anyone can give me an honest answer I would appreciated. And I am sure some of you martial artists out there would like to know too....thanks you for your time and honesty!

Ironcu.

That's a really good question, and thanks for asking it - and for having the courage to ask what is, after all, a really obviously in-need-of-asking question.

No one answer is going to cover all the angles, but the most obvious - what should be the most obvious and truthful answer - is that 99.9 percent of people doing CMA are simply not skilfull or powerful enough to enter those tournaments and survive.

People can rant and rave and deny - but it's so obviously true that all that's left to do is shrug.

Now, there's other considerations of course - Asian people tend to be in much lighter weight categories, so you don't have as many massive muscle-men who would qualify. Same effect occurs in heavier san shou categories - China tends to dominate up to a certain weight category.

The honest answer is that most Chinese stylists are no where near good enough to fight.

Having said that, the average stand up and fight skills that one sees on UFC aren't that great. Most of those fighters couldn't beat a boxer under boxing rules - pretty obvious because a boxer can focus more training on a narrower skill base.

Interestingly, a top boxer probabvly wouldn't do too great in UFC because of the wider technical range allowed... but that doesn't mean that boxing is crap, or that the boxer wouldn't win if it was an argument in an alley.

As for "UFC gloves don't allow the finer points of chin na" that is a really nonsense excuse and has no meaning and isn't even true. The only way for Chinese styles to become good enough is to stop making excuses like that - to see through the whole excuse making exercise, and despise it for what it is.


Another aspect of the equation is who really knows real kung fu? Wang Xiang Zhai said that he only knew of two or three people in the whole of China who actually knew real kung fu. So it may be that tghere's a suprise in store yet!

[msg]

heres a real answer its not that cma people cant fight or that chinese ma is not good enough ufc is a sport a lot of people dont do sports not football or baseball its all a sport ..and if you train in real kungfu its not sport oriented its made for one thing and one thing only to cause realy bad bodely damage not to make some one tap out ..talk to any old master he will tell you the real kungfu is to kill thats what the shaolin and all those arts are for

[WingTsun20]

Lets see RULES are the main reasons.... Not being able to use the art that they learn and also they'd prob have to end up gouging the guys eyes out or flattening the guys nuts...

Alot of MMA competitions don't let martial artists use certain movements...