need an honest answer

[PangQuan]

what ever style you practice does not matter.

a sport is a sport. what seperates a sport from reality is a set of rules.

regardless of the set of rules in place, we all have the same basic bodily structure, the same weaknesses, and so forth.

regardless of what style you practice you can adjust to any set of rules. your are not limited any more than an MMA figther is if your a kungfu man.

an MMA fighter certainly can eyegouge, leapord strike to the throat, etc...but they dont because its against the rules. I dont believe these concepts and techniques are mentally beyond many talented MMA fighters. that would be absurd to think.

if the rules state: ONLY PUNCHES TO THE HEAD. would you say " ow i cant eye gouge...my style is innefective as it has more than just head punches"

OR

would you say "wow, my style has many types of punches to the head, i can easily adjust to this set of rules and represent my self"

if you think about it realistically, kungfu not being represented in current MMA, is a direct result from kungfu men not entering.

its that simple.

this is just a current state of affairs, kungfu guys are getting on the bandwagon late is all.

kungfu being so "traditional" and not wanting to change or conform for a representation in modern format goes against the principles of yinyang.

many teachers do realize this and are working on the slow process that will eventually lead to kungfu students being prepared for modern sport fighting at its highest level of entertainment. Modern MMA.

just a matter of time my friends, just a matter of time.

i plan be one of the men who will personally see to this needed evolution of chinese martial art. once i begin teaching of course....which is not soon...

SO, if your a good coach, understand combat.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE AND TRAIN SOME **** FIGHTERS!

[SevenStar]

I would add to that that if you intend on training fighters, you should have fight experience yourself. when it comes to fight training, cornering, etc. experience beats out theory.

[PangQuan]

for sure.

would you want to go out in the river to catch huge salmon with some guy who has been standing in that river for 20 years. or some guy who has studied books about that river for 20 years.

[Water-quan]

ya i pretty much know your type i most likey dont live in your area but i would love to do some friendly sparring with you maybe when i come vist the states i can come vist you ....do you have a school or place we can meat i would like you to share your knowlegde with me ...and i wil let you know when iam comeing to vist..

I don't think you do know my type. i don't live in the States.

As for veiled threats over the net - I will laugh for ten days at that.

[Water-quan]

the point is people are allways going to have there openion on that ufc is better than cma or cma guys dont fight ufc guys because there not that good and hide wich all that talk i get pretty tired of ...so it comes down to what each person likes nether are weak ..it depends on the person and most poeple like to talk a lot of nonsense on the computer .AND THATS REAL TALK

Yes it is... I don't think UFC is better than CMA - far from it. What I said was take a reality check - 99.9999 per cent of CMA stylists couldn't survive a UFC fight. Threatening to fly over and teach me a lesson won't change that. If you COULD teach me I would gladly listen to you.

All this noinsense you write about all talk and all this nonsense - that's one of the things that keeps the real CMA down - supression of real information and clear thinking. Think I am the enemy of CMA? Wake up. I don't *do* UFC style. The ideas I am telling you about are a current in CMA thought, not an attack on CMA. The real CMA is profound - but it's nothing to do with any stlye. The quote from above is from Wang Xiang ZHai, not from me... go, investigate the real experts... don't waste time threatening me. *shakes head*

[Water-quan]

UFC is UFC, Pro boxing is pro boxing, a real TCMA is a real TCMA--- why make apple and oranges-keyboard comparisons? Dont these discussions get tiresome?


joy chaudhuri

Well, it might be that the differences which you percive between these are all superficial, in which case, your words are tiresome to me. The core essence is the same... only the trainign matters - further insight in to the core, or further away... far from tiresome, it's a profound wake up call for CMA - IF anyone actualy cares why it doesn't win UFC - you know, rather than scrambling to make silly excuses, or doing like those despicable types do who threaten anyone who dares speak contrarily to them. Those despicable men seek to intimidate others - makes me laugh for ten days or more to hear it!

Percieved differences between styles are all part of the illusion of bad thinking... so much concentration on the surface form is the total opposite to the point of CMA in the first place.

Quote:
Now they mostly understand that they were wrong, but why do they not agree to come and discuss the martial arts openly, and furthermore, why are they not willing to compare their skills in combat, in order to improve their learning? On the contrary, they go against their conscience and claim others to be wrong.
End.
Wang Xiang Zhai

[Water-quan]

i never said a cma guy would have an advantage in the street or a ufc guy had more advantage in the street and yes i think it depends on the person some people can and are more able to take a hit or even be more calm in a fight and that is one key factor in a real fight is to be calm

Lol - have you ever had a real fight?

[msg]

thats was not a threat dumb ass i dont make threats i like to learn every thing i can from anybody and yes i have been in a few fights even way before i started any trianing ..anybody can fight its not rocket science i used to hand out with the wrong people. and i dont think you have been in many

[Water-quan]

thats was not a threat dumb ass i dont make threats i like to learn every thing i can from anybody and yes i have been in a few fights even way before i started any trianing ..anybody can fight its not rocket science i used to hand out with the wrong people. and i dont think you have been in many

Calling peopel stupid is just another way of masking it all. There are a lot of defences, preventing people from answering the question truthfully. Lies and misunderstandings are one aspect. Threatening people is another, and calling people stupid is another. When you behave like that you simply maintain yourself as one of the reasons why CMA, on the whole, have a deplorable level. No, it really isn't rocket science to sit down and honestly ask oneself why it is that the person who wrote the original question even needed to answer it. All the nonsense about "real kung fu isn't a sport" and "kung fu doesn't need to prove anything" is just excuses - and every knows it, deep in their hearts.

The reasons why people won't address it are various - ego is one; people's personal egos areinvested in being part of a style and a tradition, and so really it is just self interest - pretending to support CMA they really just ensure their own position - selfish, and no actual care about CMA at all.

At one time, CMA was tested constantly, in order to improve it. Surface considerations like form are irrelevent - fre, personal exploration of your own quan - that's the true way - searching for the heart, the essence. The next thing to honestly ask yourself is the heart of what. If it's the heart of Tao, then there's many ways to that. If it's the heart of forms, then there's excelllent ways to that. If it's the heart of actual martial art skill, as in, actual, real boxing, then there's nothig wrong with that - and those that really do want that have no choice but to ask direct questions and give honest answers. Anytign else is just chaff, and for all your "dumb ass" and "I'll fly over and kick your ass" nonsense you can go and sit in the dark and listen to yourself, for all I am concerned. As for me, makes me sick for ten days to hear the very thing that neuters CMA pretending to be defending it.

Don't worry, I know you don't know what I am talking about, and you have me pegged as some steroid munching UFC nut. Learnig to dis-appoint expectations and open the mind a little is also key in the endevour to understand.

[Water-quan]

i like to learn every thing i can from anybody

Well then start learning. Not ever lesson conforms to what you already pre-conceive as the given truth. In fact, some of the deepest lessons come when you examine your beliefs, and listen to ideas that challenge them.

[msg]

dude there is some thing wrong with you .you have this idea that i want come over and fight you .get over your self i dont want to fight you ..anyways we can probaley argure over anything so lets just end it iam sorry for things i have said to upset you. i think you just took every thing i said the wrong way we agree to disagree. thats that

[Water-quan]

dude there is some thing wrong with you .you have this idea that i want come over and fight you .get over your self i dont want to fight you ..anyways we can probaley argure over anything so lets just end it iam sorry for things i have said to upset you. i think you just took every thing i said the wrong way we agree to disagree. thats that

I'm not upset with you. But I'm not sure why you think I would be interested in your excuses for your own behaviour.

[msg]

its all me your right what ever and there was nothing wrong with my behavior so just end it we were both agureing thats all i never was mad

[ittokaos]

Good Afternoon(it is for me anyway)

I've been reading and rereading this post today and I must say everyone here sure is spirited.

My comment, based on what I know about both styles of fighting, is the following: does it really matter?

Let's say,for sake of argument, that MMA/UFC is the best way to judge a person's fighting ability. Ok. So, fine, UFC rules the cage and the streets and anyone who disagrees is a "*****" who doesn't know how to fight and is ignorant of the current movement in martial arts today. All CMA/TMA are old and outdated and unless you mix them you can't possibly be a good fighter. All martial arts are sports and if you just train in the dojo/kwoon/street/backyard you're just kidding yourself and there's no way that you could ever survive in the cage with Liddel(or whoever) unless you add a little BJJ and Muay Thai to your style.

There are no true kung fu masters and CM artists just make excuses and cry about how it's not fair that they have to wear gloves and can't do dim mak or other deadly strikes. These deadly strikes don't exist, they are just old legends and can not be proven by the superior fighting arena that is the octagon. Kung fu has no grapples. Western boxing is one of the greatest fighting style in history. Awesome.

Now, let's say, for sake of arguement, Kung fu is superior in everyway to UFC. UFC/MMA is filled with tons of brutal yet unskilled fighters. The octagon is a fighting arena that caters to the unfortunate dilema that is plaguing TMA: the so called MMA fighter. This type of fighter, while good at his sport, cannot survive on the street with their obviously limited skill. MMA is comprised of fools who don't understand the value of chin na and choose not to see that a true kung fu master could kill a MMA fighter in the cage as easily as child crushes ants.

The reason that CMA isn't used in the octagon is the fact that it is far superior and by setting up these rules they are limiting it's obvious effectiveness. When true kung fu is brought to the cage all will see it's deadly power. UFC is all BJJ and Muay Thai. Grappling doesn't work in a real fight and will leave you open for a beat down when fighting more than one opponent. Ground Fighting is utterly useless in a real fight. It only works in the cage. UFC is all about the money. Great.

Ok, everyone happy? Anyone happy? No? Why not?

Well, here's the thing. We can go on and on and on about why we think that our way of fighting is superior to someone else's and we will never get anywhere. I know that what I typed isn't exactly what you guys were saying but it was on more or less. At the end of the day, people are going to believe what they want to believe. They believe what their eyes tell them. They believe the tangable. The here and now. What the media/government/parents/authority figures/etc.. tell them to believe.

Most of (not all) of the people here that are pro MMA, do a little and or are training to do UFC(or pride/k1/etc). They watch it on tv and probably think"Wow, these guys are awesome, I think that they are some of the best fighters out there. Kung fu is fake and doesn't compare. This is how a real man fights!"

On the other side, (most)CMA say/think that Kung fu is the most sophisticated style in the world. No other fighting style compares and if kung fu was brought to the cage, everyone would see a true martial artist fight!

So, how do we stop this arguement? Let's say that a true kung fu man goes into the cage and dominates so much that all MMA artists are stunned by his skill and revere him as the greatest. Let's say that they eventually remove the gloves and let true kung fu be seen. Someone dies. Good? No? Ok, lets say that a kung fu man does into the ring and gets beaten badly by MMA fighter. Kung fu activity declines until it is virtually non exsistant. No one will use kung fu due to it's ineffectiveness. Kung fu as we know it is gone. Awesome right? No? Why not?

This arguement will continue to rage on and on for no real reason. I know that one wants the other to see the error of their ways and "see the light" but it's probably not going to happen. So, just agree to dissagree.

As for true kung fu to go in the cage, why? For what purpose? Is that what your sifu taught you? To go into a ring and prove that your kung fu is superior? Competition is one thing. A test of skill, fine. But to go into a ring to prove that you are superior? That is not The Way. Kung Fu means hard work. You work hard at your skill and it is frustrating for someone to tell you that your hard work is meaningless. That your time was foolishly spend on foolish goals and endeavors.

I know, I've been there. Is it worth it? Is it worth soiling the values of your martial art in order to prove yourself? You prove yourself everyday when you get up and train when others are relaxing. You prove your skill more by choosing not to fight than to fight for the wrong reasons. Is it worth dying for? If it's not, then it's not worth fighting for, no matter what the reason.

For the UFC enthusiast, kung fu is what a vast majority of MA originated but there is no one style of martial art that is superior to another. Only the individual is superior. If a kung fu man went into the octagon and lost, it isn't because the art doesn't work it is on the artist and the artist alone. If a musician plays a bad song it's not because his style of music is horrible it's because the musician isn't as good as he/she thought.

The octagon isn't the end all be all in MA and while that wasn't said in so many words, it was somewhat implied (even though it wasn't intended to do so)when it was compared to CMA. CMA is excellent for fighting. Sport or otherwise.

Look at Bruce Lee. Are you saying that Bruce Lee wasn't a good fighter? UFC and other MMA competitions are based on the values that Bruce Lee taught. His Jeet Kun Do was based on his experiences with wing chun and what he added on to improve this. Now, this wasn't necessarilly an improvement on the style but a way to get out of a style mentallity and go about improvements from a different angle. Never once does he state that wing chun or any other CMA is ineffective in any respect. He just felt that a "style" gave him limitations.

As for the too deadly, some CMA techniques are brutal and can be deadly(especially the pressure point strikes) but if kung fu is planing to go into the octagon then that individual will have to make a change to they're training if they are to succeed without those deadly strikes. If you can generate enough force behind your attacks any kung fu man could put up a good fight.

Don't assume that just because you haven't seen it that it doesn't exist. That goes for everyone out there.

I think that Bruce Lee said it best. It went something like this(don't quote me): "To see is to be decived, to hear is to be lied to, to feel is the only was to the truth."

I understand that the words from this mouth(fingers) won't neccessarily stop this conflict. The ego is far too strong and is so obviously raging is the minds of some of these posters.

However, martial arts, true martial arts were meant to kill. Not for sport. Not to impress. Not for money. Not for glory. Death. When martial arts are used for death they are being used correctly. Self Defense is merely a side effect. Fortunately, through martial arts one can learn that death, glory, money, fame, etc..really don't matter.

The little things in life are what make it worth living. It no longer matters that no one thinks that you are the greatest at your art. You know. You have nothing to prove. There's an old saying: "A shallow bucket makes great splashing sounds but a full bucket is silent. "

Unfortunately, today we are all faced with the ego which make that little things difficult to enjoy and because of that same ego, foolish conflicts arise. What one needs to learn is that the true enemy is onself.

I know that my words have probably fallen on deaf ears just as I know that my words will be attacked and holes will be poked through my comment by those who must truly enjoy this conflict, for if they didn't they wouldn't continue it.

I can only hope that I have helped at least one person today with my words. If I can at least get one person to think, truly think on this, then I will be thankful.


Thank you for your time,

WF

[SevenStar]

Most of (not all) of the people here that are pro MMA, do a little and or are training to do UFC(or pride/k1/etc). They watch it on tv and probably think"Wow, these guys are awesome, I think that they are some of the best fighters out there. Kung fu is fake and doesn't compare. This is how a real man fights!"

no offense, but that's just ignorant.

On the other side, (most)CMA say/think that Kung fu is the most sophisticated style in the world. No other fighting style compares and if kung fu was brought to the cage, everyone would see a true martial artist fight!

no offense, but that is ignorant as well. I will agree, however, that various kung fu styles may well be the most sophisticated arts in the world.

This arguement will continue to rage on and on for no real reason. I know that one wants the other to see the error of their ways and "see the light" but it's probably not going to happen. So, just agree to dissagree.

people agreed to disagree years ago. However, debating is fun, hence the reason people debate on forums.

As for true kung fu to go in the cage, why? For what purpose? Is that what your sifu taught you? To go into a ring and prove that your kung fu is superior? Competition is one thing. A test of skill, fine. But to go into a ring to prove that you are superior? That is not The Way. Kung Fu means hard work. You work hard at your skill and it is frustrating for someone to tell you that your hard work is meaningless. That your time was foolishly spend on foolish goals and endeavors.

In what position are you in to tell someone what The Way is?

I know, I've been there. Is it worth it? Is it worth soiling the values of your martial art in order to prove yourself?

assuming that you have actually fought, doing so to "prove yourself" is pointless. Who are you trying to prove yourself to?

You prove yourself everyday when you get up and train when others are relaxing. You prove your skill more by choosing not to fight than to fight for the wrong reasons. Is it worth dying for? If it's not, then it's not worth fighting for, no matter what the reason.

I'm sure cops don't think you are worth dying for. They still go to work everyday. I don't think the people in my club are worth dying for, but I still go bounce people out when they step out of line. it sounds like you picked up this entire post from a movie.

For the UFC enthusiast, kung fu is what a vast majority of MA originated but there is no one style of martial art that is superior to another. Only the individual is superior.

not true. People are superior - training methods are.

If a kung fu man went into the octagon and lost, it isn't because the art doesn't work it is on the artist and the artist alone.

losing isn't the point. People lose all the time - someone has to, regardless of what style they train. It's the way they train they means most. training methods rule the day.

The octagon isn't the end all be all in MA and while that wasn't said in so many words, it was somewhat implied (even though it wasn't intended to do so)when it was compared to CMA. CMA is excellent for fighting. Sport or otherwise.

that was not implied. CMA may be excellent for fighting in some venue somewhere - like san da - but it's lack of a grappling element makes inferior for cage fighting, unless the practitioner cross trains in grappling. On the same token, a bjj guy would probably suck in a san da match. you have to train for the venue you are competing in.

Look at Bruce Lee. Are you saying that Bruce Lee wasn't a good fighter?

who cares?

1. he is dead
2. he has only had what, one or two documented fights?
3. he is dead
4. since when does having two fights make you a great fighter? He had great attributes, but that does not attest to him being a good fighter.
5. he is dead.

UFC and other MMA competitions are based on the values that Bruce Lee taught.

I'm sorry, but said values were around WAY before bruce lee's great grandparents were even alive...

As for the too deadly, some CMA techniques are brutal and can be deadly(especially the pressure point strikes)

tell me you're joking...

but if kung fu is planing to go into the octagon then that individual will have to make a change to they're training if they are to succeed without those deadly strikes. If you can generate enough force behind your attacks any kung fu man could put up a good fight.

that was a silly statement, but you are on the right track here.

I think that Bruce Lee said it best. It went something like this(don't quote me): "To see is to be decived, to hear is to be lied to, to feel is the only was to the truth."

it has been felt on numerous occasions.

However, martial arts, true martial arts were meant to kill. Not for sport. Not to impress. Not for money. Not for glory. Death. When martial arts are used for death they are being used correctly. Self Defense is merely a side effect. Fortunately, through martial arts one can learn that death, glory, money, fame, etc..really don't matter.

1. that's not what they are used for now - they have firearms for that
2. the way they trained then ws completely different than the way you are training now
3. they had an entirely different mindset than you have.
4. what they train was also used for sport - look at the history or muay thai. Or even kung fu - challenge matches were still a sort of sport, as were the collisseum fights in ancient greece. EVERY civilization in recorded histrory has had some indegenous folk wrestling style. there has always been some sportive aspect to fighting.

The little things in life are what make it worth living. It no longer matters that no one thinks that you are the greatest at your art. You know. You have nothing to prove. There's an old saying: "A shallow bucket makes great splashing sounds but a full bucket is silent. "

a full bucket breaks its silence if the outside force is hard enough.

regardless, sport fighting in most cases is not about proving yourself, but of course, individual reasons will vary.

Unfortunately, today we are all faced with the ego which make that little things difficult to enjoy and because of that same ego, foolish conflicts arise. What one needs to learn is that the true enemy is onself.

unfortunately, too many non-competitors make the same assumption you made here.

I know that my words have probably fallen on deaf ears just as I know that my words will be attacked and holes will be poked through my comment by those who must truly enjoy this conflict, for if they didn't they wouldn't continue it.

somtimes people just truly say stupid things too...

I can only hope that I have helped at least one person today with my words. If I can at least get one person to think, truly think on this, then I will be thankful.

I had to think as I replied, if that helps.