Martial Arts Gathering 2007.

[Hendrik]

Bro Eric,


Bro Hendrik, let me reiterate, I am not challenging you or Jim or anyone who comes here to present their views. -----E

No worry at all. I would not believe what I said if I dont go through what I go through.



Having said that, imho, to persuade others we need more than words. Bro Hendrik, if you believe what you believe, I think you should use all means and forms to address the audience -------E


You are right.

Once I have offer to share, and
For example there is Jim, Paul... etc, they took my offer, visited me.

I dont have to persuade them because the Nature speak for itself. when the art grow within one's body one knows.






That is why I do what I do, I am putting together this gathering so that we could all meet and touch hands and experience. Really I am getting a bit weary of hearing all the endless disagreements of what’s right or wrong, if there was such a condition in the first place. -------E



You see, there is disagreements and there is different opinion...etc.

To be real honest,
I dont even care for that, I like to get into something like the 5th Stanza as I brought up above.

Could one do it? if not then one can have the reason of the whole world and nothing could work. That is the reason I brought up not to use intelecture speculation until one experience what is what.

IMHO, the bottom line is are we restore the art or are we argue based on our view points. we could win the arguement and debate but the art die.

To be real honest, if one cant do the 5th, then the SLT could not get internal. That simple. but how many willing to face this?

IMHO, until we have an acadamia type of education, we could not thinking straight most of the time.






Por Suk told me that after a few hundred years, there are bound to be variances in the art considering that it was taught to different folks during a very tumultuous time in history. -

The art was adapted to best perform the job at hand. You train one way on board a boat and another on land. He went on to describe how the various historical Masters added or subtracted to tailor it specific needs.

I have long accepted that this as the “evolution” that we mentioned. --------E


Sure I agree with you about the evolution. however, I dont totally agree with Por Suk.

Cho family similar to the Pan family has produced a few generation of great martial artis continously down to my sifu Cho Hong-Choy's generation. ( since I dont know the younger generation). When I got the Kuen kuit and teaching of Yik Kam, there I realized there are keys/principle within the teaching which will not change disregard of one's personal characteristics and depth of kungfu.

As an example, if you look at Poh Suk's clip and my sihengs picture in the 1970. you will notice they all have the close body reel which is very different compare with today's general type of WCK with rapid fire to center line.

So, IMHO, there is a key why is this happen. and that link into how one is practicing at that time. and if this key is missing or evolve away, then one no longer has this type of uniqueness. So, could we reproduce those type of 1970 taste? Yes, if we know the key.

so, the important thing is the key or the transmission. and sometimes, it is not evolution, it is due to we are not that capable to "realized" in depth what it is or sometimes, some one is being secretive and purposely or accidentally not passing down the key. So, the art change big time after that generation without knowing the art is lost.




So, we have this scenario; what are we going to to?

Accept it and enjoy the colorful fabric or try to bleach everything back to monochrome. -------E



You see, Localized Evolution is not a problem. the issue comes when the core or the Key above is no longer there.

For example, the White Crane Chun Jing Jieh Lik (inch jing join power) . Sure it is going to evolve after hundreds of years. However, not everything is Chun Jing Jieh Lik.

Thus, I raise the 5th hoping some one will see the light. Without the Emei technology, the Snake will not live because as soon as one cannot handle one's spine and join, one cannot manifest the snake well.


IMHO, it is not about who is right. it is about will the enginee turn on. However, this bring up another serious issue of ancient CMA--- giving weapon to the wrong person will end up creating more problem.



So, now one is in a dilemma of to say it is wrong to not say it is also wrong.




Just to share some deep thoughts of mine. and I put this case behind me.


Best Regards
Hendrik

[Hendrik]

Eric siheng,


But after digesting what you wrote, strangely to me, you appear to be describing “Whooping Crane”….-----E

Does Whooping Crane fajin when the knee becomes straight from bending or bending becomes straight?





I have always thought that Wing Chun (regardless of lines) has “evolved” away from the noticeable spine movements and keep all movements “small” or “imperceptible”…even the “breath” must be hidden to prevent opponents from reading intent. Karate folks would tell you how they are trained to read opponents’ breathing to time their strikes… -------- E


Thus, I have heard.

1, one needs to aware of the spine and breathing before entering into the minute.

2, it is imperceptible because it become a part of nature. when the qi sink to dan dien and the lower abs breathing activate there is a different type of breathing. and this type of breathing resonance with the spine .... there one enter another state and that state unless one experience, intellect thinking doesnt get one there.

3 it was done without using strength in breathing or intention or thinking. it is let go let god and by passed the intellecture mind. but using Awareness. it is about Dao mimic nature.




This stillness, coincidentally, is also what we aspire to realize at advance level of Whooping Crane. ---- E

IMHO, Stillness could be measure via EEG, breathing could be measure via HRV. until then we really dont know are we talking about the same state. not to mention there is Silence after the Stillness....etc. and after silence then one enter into the state of leading the Qi. there are many ways to get there but YIk Kam's SLT is using the Emei 12 Zhuang technology. That is forsure.

Thus I have heard.





Warmest Regards.

Hendrik

[Eric Ling]

Bro Hendrik,

I hear you … keeping the arts, imho, comes in many shapes and forms.

You are a “purist” in my book; keep it to the ways the founder intended uncompromisingly, which is why I find it hard to reconcile this to your standpoint of not wanting to “preserve the fruits” of the past.

Again, I know where you are coming from but sometimes I find following your presentation hard because you are so “patchy”….

To answer your question of Whooping Crane, the answer is both. Both actions are integral to the concept of “tun and to” that we use throughout my line of Whooping Crane.

Pardon me if I don’t go into fine details; I am very aware of a joker prowling all the forums and picking bits and pieces of info to restitch and present it as his own version of “Whooping Crane”.

This to me is “violation” and not “evolution”….

Warmest Regards.

Eric

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Eric,


Jim, thanks for your message. I see your “bigness” through it.

Computer discussion is hard sometimes. JR

But after digesting what you wrote, strangely to me, you appear to be describing “Whooping Crane”….

Never watched Wooping other than some of the clips you ahve posted. I connot comment on the similarities. JR

I have always thought that Wing Chun (regardless of lines) has “evolved” away from the noticeable spine movements and keep all movements “small” or “imperceptible”…even the “breath” must be hidden to prevent opponents from reading intent. Karate folks would tell you how they are trained to read opponents’ breathing to time their strikes…

What I have found is Wing Chun has Evolved away from the Body and focus more on the Application. Tee & Yong These need to work in harmony and because the Body is usually something different (like weight lifting, Hung Gar, CLF, Taiji etc) its hard to comprehend when read versus trained/felt. The fine movement need not show gross waving and spine flex but during training their has to be the subtle body action managing and conditioing the body. Without this there is no reproduction of stylized Ging's in the arts. The actions of Wing Chun have to flow with natural breath tho as the art is just too fast for any form of focused breathing intent. JR

This stillness, coincidentally, is also what we aspire to realize at advance level of Whooping Crane.



On another note! With regards to Hendrik and his lineage I can tell you that while visiting his house I personally was lucky enough to look thru his family book. This book contained loads and loads of old pictures and writings and notes. One note that was very cool to read was from Cho Hung Choi sigungs Wife I believe. Stating how much Hendrik meant to her husband and other nice words. I'm sure they would be proud that he has shared his understanding as best he can!

When a family does Multiple arts (and often arts that do not belong being practiced together) for many many generations its often very hard to not avoid cross-breeding. Forutnately, the Cho family preserve the Yik Kam Kuen Kuit to use as a guide for their arts Tee & Yong.


Have to run my friend but if you ever come to the states visit Boston and I will be more than happy to let you feel the art. BTW: I hope you realize that only in Boston you can learn to cook NE Clam Chowder! (I am being sarcastic! hahaha Its like saying you have to go to Hung village to learn Hung Gar)

BTW 2: Nobody is saying the demo's are not real nice! Thats very important. Just trying to be very specific in discussion if you know what I mean?


Respect to Crane family!

[Hendrik]

Bro Hendrik,



You are a “purist” in my book; keep it to the ways the founder intended uncompromisingly, which is why I find it hard to reconcile this to your standpoint of not wanting to “preserve the fruits” of the past.

...

Bro Eric,

Have you ever think in a direction of perhaps I am not a purist (but I am a librate who I dont even care if the SLT looks like dancing in the movie clip I post as soon as it has a soul? ) but I am trying to tell the world why do we settle for less where we could have it all?

Why is Cho Gar has to lower the standard since there are so much depth in Cho Gar art?

Why is Yik kam lineage has to lower it's art ability since within the transmission we know its is deep?


we might not know how to do it but we dont want to deny the ancestors have done it. and we dont want to deny somedays we could do it too.

If one look at things that way, then they understand me, I am trying to tell the world nope no one needs to compremise but can have it all. Just let go the resistance of thinking not having it is by default.



I really would love to encourage this type of open to all and have it all thinking for everyone. See, life doesnt have to struggle. but once one started to argue this not that is not then one start loosing it. IMHO. and the minute we limit ourself to lacking or scacity thinking as default then our world become limited and how could we do research? how could we manifest?

My sijo Cho Dak-Sheng bring a big revolution in Cho Family art, my sifu Cho Hong-Choy has contribute a major part of my training. Both, IMHO, are very creative or limitless people. For Creative is the key to live and Creative is the voice of the soul. once one lost this voice then one lost the soul. Thus, I dont belive in preserve but keep creative and keep alive.

One could Localize Evolve and expanding, Evolve as much as deep as one could expand as vast as one could, that is great provided one's evolve comes with the soul. otherwise, things become a cut and paste instead of Evolution and expanding.





BTW, I am not preserving it because what I know from Cho Hong-Choy and the Yik Kam writing is alive well in the USA today.

and if I die today.
as the song in the crouching tiger and hidden dragon sing.----



If the sky opened up for me,
And the mountain disappeared,
If the seas ran dry, turned to dust
And the sun refused to rise
I would still find my way,
By the light I see in your eyes
The world I know fades away
But you stay


BTW. the lyrics is beautiful and it is even beautiful after one goes through the seas ran dry and sun refuse to rise.

Sun refuse to rise could be seen as the SLT has no longer even have the Zhao Yan Sau of White Crane.... but we would still find our way to get it back.


Peace

[Hendrik]

I decide to share this view ...





Preservation means burden.
For we cannot freeze time and kept the past in a time capsure and expecting it to have life.
and or expect everyone to live in the shadow of the past and called that faithfull or royal to the family. That actually is a waste of life;
or worship the past and miss out NoW.

Similar to a rose,
no matter how one preserve it the rose is going to be dry out.
because it has longer has life.
and trying to preserve something without live is a burden.
you know it is not going to last long...



We could no longer live in the past,
for it is over and will never come again no matter how glory the past is.
The more energy we invest into the past,
the less energy we have for our present or living this instant.
That become a drag, a burden that trap oneself instead of set one free.


the more weight the burden the longer one wait to attain free and grow


Why not take the seed of the Rose,
plant it in SEA,
Plant it in Boston,
Plant it in Penang,
Plant it in LA
Plant it in Fujian......

Let the rose grow as it is under the condition of the different location.

Forget about preserve the past,
but let life continous to grow every instant.

No longer burden,
No longer trying to live the past,
No longer feel drain,
No longer needs to do thing as the old ways.


But let the nature take its corse,
Let Go Let God,

Let the Rose Grow without preserve it.
and That is about Spring. Grow Now and Free.
No need to argue about who is right or wrong or the right way.
For what matter is the Nature Way.
those which could grow and bloom is the Nature.


However,

you need a seed to start with. and that seed is what I am talking about.
The rest, be it in Poon Yee or Moon, Boston or Penang, it does matter.

A living Rose is a living Rose.


The mission is to break the boundary of self limitation and set oneself free. That is about restoring and lets life continuous flow freely and manifest and bloom.

[Eric Ling]

Hahahaha… Bro Hendrik,

This is so funny; I actually started writing a message to be posted after you talked about “fruits” but decided not to for some reasons.

I normally type in Microsoft Words and then cut and paste in this forum..

Essentially, my argument in that aborted message is that preservation is not about “fruits” of past Masters. It’s really more about the seeds planted by the Masters in the disciples and allowing that to bloom.

Or in the words of my late Sifu; my kung fu cannot be your kung fu. I show you the way and you find it yourself ….

Hahahaha, maybe I should really join you on that boat and play er-hu … hahahaha ….

Warmest Regards.

Eric

[Hendrik]

Hahahaha… Bro Hendrik,

This is so funny; I actually started writing a message to be posted after you talked about “fruits” but decided not to for some reasons.

I normally type in Microsoft Words and then cut and paste in this forum..

Essentially, my argument in that aborted message is that preservation is not about “fruits” of past Masters. It’s really more about the seeds planted by the Masters in the disciples and allowing that to bloom.

Or in the words of my late Sifu; my kung fu cannot be your kung fu. I show you the way and you find it yourself ….

Hahahaha, maybe I should really join you on that boat and play er-hu … hahahaha ….

Warmest Regards.

Eric

Eric Bro,

A lots of things happen here is not an co-incident. IMHO.

Ask Jim, he was in my home when we would like to take my clips, the video camera battery died of. So, I take it as divine wants me to stay in the back ground... if the divine didnt want me to realease my 8 medirians understanding then so be it. .. Let Go Let GOD.

peace

[Shadow_warrior8]

Eric Bro,
does the price of 900usd include accomodation and food? Plane tickets? Transfers?
Lets route back to the martial arts gathering 2007 and for people wanting to go.
Generate more interest here. Clock ticking.....
Told some of my bros here. They are salivating.
Apic event.......
http://www.martialartsgathering.com/index.html

[Hendrik]

Bro Eric,

Please keep post your clips be it from Cho Gar or other style.

Since it is about sharing the Seed and hope that some one will join to grow the Rose. Others opinion is always great because some opinions are contributing for a better grow. IMHO.


In Cho family, we have a set which name CLF, this set applying the component of CLF, pau kaap Wang Kua Chat...etc , center with the Huen Kaam Tiu Taap the core of Yik Kam WCK.

So, certainly it will not be exact CLF however it has its uniqueness for the locallized evolution.


IMHO, Localization Evolution is nature and as soon as one could present the uniqueness and the seed behind the LE that is respectable.

IMHO, that there are a different type of Localization Evolution, those are the type when the art is lossing one or many of its keys without aware of this has happen. That usually end up with one argue to defend when question instead of presenting the uniqueness.


Thus, presenting a uniqueness evol in general will widen the horizon of others to see a new fusion.
got critic on the losing evolution in general will aid the practitioners to restore the key which is missing or fading.


As for my comment on the SLT of Yik Kam, and others opion on me on this case, the Truth is there is the 5th stanza.

Yik Kam has wrote about it, Cho Hong-Choy has written discussion about the sinking of Qi to Dan Dien issue to his student, and he indeed has pulled the 5th on me in the late 1970 when I was doing Tenso kata to tell me I couldnt sink my qi to dan dien...

So, for Yik Kam lineage, one will not be able to discount this fact unless one has the writing of Miu Shun to Over write Yik Kam. Also, for the Cho family's WCK, when it is on the Yik Kam SLT since from Yik Kam to Cho Hong-Choy we have written record of the involvement of the 5th.
Unless there is personal writting by my sijo Cho Dak-Shing to reveal that Cho family discard the 5th, then the 5th is there by default under Cho Dak-Shing's lineage.

Not to mention, Cho Hong-Choy also learn from Sam Chan who is in the same generation as Cho Dak-Shing (eventhought Cho Hong-Choy keep his position as the Student of Cho On and Cho Cuen, instead of by passed and get a higher title with Sam Chan),

Thus, from the facture stand point, the 5th applied to both Yik Kam lineage and Cho family WCK.

and if one has it that is great, if one has lost it then it is time to get it back instead of jumping into conclusion on Cho Family WCK or Yik Kam WCK has no internal art components which is damaging the art in the name of defending the family or lineage. which is actually not defending the lineage because when the art is damage the lineage's is also damage. IMHO




Best Regards
Hendrik

[Eric Ling]

Hi Bro Hendrik,

No problemo ... now planting in this other thread ...www.martialartsgathering.com

Warmest Regards.

Eric

[GeneChing]

This struck me as an odd article worthy of posting here.

Resolving the wushu feud
by Ting Tieng Hee. Posted on January 27, 2011, Thursday

Non-affiliates advised to join state parent body

KUCHING: One way to resolve the long-standing feud among the various wushu factions in the state is for the non-affiliates to join the state parent body – Wushu, Lion and Dragon Dance Federation of Sarawak (WFS).

And exponents who aspire to represent Sarawak should also join a WFS affiliate because the Wushu Federation of Malaysia (WFM), the Sarawak State Sports Council (MSNS) and the State Education Department only recognise WFS as the state governing body for the martial arts sport.

“Our door is open to any association provided it follows the right procedures and abide by the WFS constitution,” WFS secretary James Ting said yesterday.

He was responding to a report in a local daily that in the interests of the state wushu exponents, MSNS director Francis Nyurang Ding had advised the Chinese Martial Arts Association (CMAA) to re-apply to become an affiliate of the state parent body.

“They (CMAA) have to follow procedures — such as applying for affiliation – in order to obtain sanction to compete in national or international competitions,” Francis was quoted as saying.

“To take part in outside tournaments, they have to be officially accepted by (WFS) as we only recognise the state parent body,” he added.

Francis gave this advice following a meeting last Wednesday between Assistant Minister of Social Development and Urbanisation (Sports) Datuk Lee Kim Shin, permanent secretary to the Social Development and Urbanisation Ministry Soedirman Aini, WFS, represented by Ting, CMAA chairman Chester Lim, a concerned parent Grace Sim and lawyer See Chee How.

The meeting, called by State Secretary Datuk Morshidi Ghani, was aimed mainly at looking into the interests of those state wushu exponents, purportedly deprived of the opportunity to compete in national and international meets because they are not members of WFS affiliates.

Allegations baseless Ting, who is also WFS chief coach and development chairman, said allegations by some parents that WFS was blocking their children from representing Sarawak were “baseless.”

“WFS doesn’t even know who are these parents and exponents. So how can they say WFS has victimised them.

“They should know very well why they cannot represent the state. Even if they don’t, they should find out the reason instead of jumping into conclusion after hearing only one side of the story,” he said.

Ting explained the WFS constitution clearly states only exponents from affiliates can take part in WFS-sanctioned competitions and represent Sarawak in Sukma or other national competitions like MSSM Wushu Championship, National Wushu Championship and National Day Martial Arts Tournament.

It is also understood that only WFS affiliates are permitted to teach the sport in schools and other educational institutions.

“We also know some of exponents from non-affiliates have represented other states such as Terengganu, Perak, Melaka and Kuala Lumpur. This is against WFM rules,” Ting said.

He pointed that this should not have been the case, especially after leaders of the wushu associations concerned had attended WFM-MSN meetings and agreed that no state should field any exponent from another state in Sukma or national meets unless the exponent has studied, worked or resided in that state for two years.

WFS now has 19 affiliates, including wushu, temple and clans associations.