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Thread: how two men defied the entire prison system

  1. #1

    how two men defied the entire prison system

    http://www.projectposner.org/case/1988/854F2d162/

    "The United States Penitentiary in Marion, Illinois, is the successor to Alcatraz as the prison designed to hold the most violent and dangerous prisoners in the federal system. The only "Level 6" prison in that system (federal prisons carry a security rating ranging from 1 to 6), it may be the most severe prison in the country, and it houses not only the worst federal prisoners but, on a contract basis, state prisoners too violent for state prisons to handle. Its 300-odd inmates are among the most dangerous people in this nation of 240 million.

    To live under such conditions is sordid and horrible, and though they would have raised few eyebrows a hundred years ago, the concept of cruel and unusual punishments is an evolving one; the minimum standard of decency in prisons is a function of the conditions of life on the outside, and therefore as society becomes wealthier, more comfortable, more sensitive, more civilized, the constitutional minimum of decency in incarceration rises. There is no question that conditions in Marion deserve careful scrutiny, but they must be evaluated against the background of an extraordinary history of inmate violence and with proper regard for the limited competence of federal judges to micromanage prisons.

    The defendants placed in the record a remarkable narrative of the violence that led up to the lockdown. We note a few highlights (some corroborated by decisions of this court). Two inmates, while exercising in the corridor outside their cells, garrotted a third inmate, who was asleep in his cell with his head against the bars. See United States v. Silverstein, 732 F.2d 1338 (7th Cir. 1984). An inmate stabbed another inmate with a knife while they were exercising and was in turn stabbed by two inmates with knives on his way back to his cell. An inmate fired a zip gun (a homemade pistol) at another inmate and at a guard, wounding both. Inmates have attacked other inmates and guards with a homemade bomb, with a light bulb, with a padlock, with a sharpened pencil wielded as a knife, with a sharpened toothbrush, with feces, with a chair, with a mop wringer, with a home-made mallet, and with a bucket of boiling water, as well as with the usual zip guns and shanks. (Shanks are homemade knives, often carved out of the legs of the steel beds in the cells. The steel beds have now been replaced by concrete blocks in an effort to prevent the manufacture of shanks.) A number of inmates were killed in these assaults, and in addition there were frequent riots and strikes by inmates, takings of guards as hostages, takeovers of cell blocks, and ingenious attempts to escape—once to the accompaniment of rifle fire directed at the prison from the outside. One inmate managed to detonate a bomb in his cell.

    In the climactic week that preceded the lockdown, two guards were murdered in similar incidents. In each a prisoner being escorted from his cell broke away from the three guards escorting him, thrust his handcuffed wrists (this was before the innovation of placing a box over the handcuffs) into an accomplice's cell, emerged sans handcuffs but holding a shank in his hand, and proceeded to attack the guards. In one of the incidents, another guard was crippled and the third seriously injured. See United States v. Fountain, 768 F.2d 790, modified on other grounds. Throughout this period, searches uncovered an astonishing quantity of knives, zip guns, and other contraband, including many homemade keys that fit handcuffs and others that fit doors in the prison. Searches of body cavities, including the nose, the mouth, and the rectum, continue to turn up an impressive quantity and variety of contraband, including knives and hacksaw blades."

    http://www.projectposner.org/case/1985/768F2d790/

    We have consolidated the appeals in two closely related cases of murder of prison guards in the Control Unit of the federal penitentiary at Marion, Illinois — the maximum-security cell block in the nation's maximum-security federal prison — by past masters of prison murder, Clayton Fountain and Thomas Silverstein.

    Shortly before these crimes, Fountain and Silverstein, both of whom were already serving life sentences for murder, had together murdered an inmate in the Control Unit of Marion, and had again been sentenced to life imprisonment. See United States v. Silverstein, 732 F.2d 1338. After that, Silverstein killed another inmate, pleaded guilty to that murder, and received his third life sentence. At this point Fountain and Silverstein had each killed three people. (For one of these killings, however, Fountain had been convicted only of voluntary manslaughter. And Silverstein's first murder conviction was reversed for trial error, and a new trial ordered, after the trial in this case.) The prison authorities — belatedly, and as it turned out ineffectually — decided to take additional security measures. Three guards would escort Fountain and Silverstein (separately), handcuffed, every time they left their cells to go to or from the recreation room, the law library, or the shower. (Prisoners in Marion's Control Unit are confined, one to a cell, for all but an hour or an hour and a half a day, and are fed in their cells.) But the guards would not be armed; nowadays guards do not carry weapons in the presence of prisoners, who might seize the weapons.

    The two murders involved in these appeals took place on the same October day in 1983. In the morning, Silverstein, while being escorted from the shower to his cell, stopped next to Randy Gometz's cell; and while two of the escorting officers were for some reason at a distance from him, reached his handcuffed hands into the cell. The third officer, who was closer to him, heard the click of the handcuffs being released and saw Gometz raise his shirt to reveal a home-made knife ("shank") — which had been fashioned from the iron leg of a bed — protruding from his waistband. Silverstein drew the knife and attacked one of the guards, Clutts, stabbing him 29 times and killing him. While pacing the corridor after the killing, Silverstein explained that "this is no cop thing. This is a personal thing between me and Clutts. The man disrespected me and I had to get him for it." Having gotten this off his chest he returned to his cell.

    Fountain was less discriminating. While being escorted that evening back to his cell from the recreation room, he stopped alongside the cell of another inmate (who, however, apparently was not prosecuted for his part in the events that followed) and reached his handcuffed hands into the cell, and when he brought them out he was out of the handcuffs and holding a shank. He attacked all three guards, killing one (Hoffman) with multiple stab wounds (some inflicted after the guard had already fallen), injuring another gravely (Ditterline, who survived but is permanently disabled), and inflicting lesser though still serious injuries on the third (Powles). After the wounded guards had been dragged to safety by other guards, Fountain threw up his arms in the boxer's gesture of victory, and laughing walked back to his cell.

    The prudence of requiring shackles in this case was shown by Fountain's and Silverstein's extraordinary history of violence in the face of maximum security precautions, the fact that most of the witnesses were murderers, and above all the fact that, as we shall explain when we discuss the sentencing issues, the defendants are wholly beyond the deterrent reach of the law. If they were not shackled, there would be a grave danger of their attacking people in the courtroom or trying to escape. Silverstein's long disciplinary record includes one escape, while Gometz 's includes three episodes of planning and attempting escape.

    Violent men are not necessarily liars, and indeed one class of violent men consists of those with an exaggerated sense of honor. Now Silverstein had testified on direct examination that he had killed Clutts because Clutts was planning to let Cubans out of their cells to kill him, and on cross-examination had added that he hadn't been "out to hurt anybody or anything." If this statement could be construed as putting the peaceableness of his character in issue, then he laid himself open to cross-examination designed to show the violence of his character.

    Fountain at his trial testified that he too had been acting in self-defense when he attacked his guards; and while he admitted that he had had a knife, he testified that it was for self-defense. This testimony laid him open to the cross-examination of which he complains: an inquiry about his prior activities with a knife, which included killing an inmate whom he stabbed 57 times, crying "die, bi-ch, die."

    Fountain complains about the court's refusal to subpoena as witnesses inmates Bruscino and Gometz. He says they would have contradicted a guard who testified that Fountain, shortly after the murder, had told Bruscino, who was in the second cell down the corridor from Fountain (Gometz was in the cell between them), that "it would have been fun if he [Fountain] could have killed Hoffman, Jr." — the son of the guard Fountain had killed, and also a guard at Marion.

    Fountain also objects to testimony by a guard that two months after the murder Fountain had said to him, "what are you looking at, b-tch?," and then asked him whether, when it was his turn to die, he "would scream like the other two b-tches screamed." Fountain argues that the alleged conversation was irrelevant and that it wasn't even shown that he knew that another guard had been killed the day he murdered Hoffman. At all events, any error was a harmless one; the circumstances of Fountain 's mad dog attack on three guards negated any inference of self-defense."
    Last edited by JetLi'sFearless; 01-20-2007 at 10:14 PM.

  2. #2
    https://www.fastcase.com/Yahoo/Start...ateConst=Yahoo

    "Thomas Silverstein, one of the leaders of the Aryan Brotherhood, a violent prison gang, is confined in a specially designed cell at the United States Penitentiary in Atlanta. Silverstein has been convicted of at least four murders and is serving multiple consecutive life sentences. Most of the victims have been other prisoners or guards who crossed or "disrespected" Silverstein or fellow members of the Aryan Brotherhood. See United States v. Fountain

    Silverstein landed in a custom cell because the Control Unit at Marion, the most secure part of the most secure prison in the country, was not secure enough to restrain him."


    here is his home page:
    http://www.tommysilverstein.com/index.html

    "I’ve been incarcerated since
    1975 and am currently the longest held
    prisoner in total solitary confinement
    within the BOP (Bureau of Prisons) and
    perhaps in America and the world.

    Not even the notorious “Birdman of
    Alcatraz” was held in (total solitary
    confinement) absolute insolation, as I
    have been subjected to the past 23
    years! He was able to see and speak
    with his neighbors in adjacent cells"

    and here is an article on how they killed a member of the dc blacks:
    http://www.projectposner.org/case/1984/732F2d1338/

    "He was, indeed, a member of the three-man "commission" that governs the Aryan Brotherhood. To qualify for membership in the Aryan Brotherhood you must "make bones." As one prisoner explained, "In effect what it means is you will kill somebody. They distinguish the weed from the shaft. You must have a killer instinct.

    Nine days later, after their evening meal, Silverstein and another inmate of C range, defendant Fountain, an "associate" of the Aryan Brotherhood, were let out of their cells to recreate. They were not kept under continuous observation by guards during the hour in which they were roaming the corridor of C range. An hour and a quarter after Silverstein and Fountain were returned to their cells Chappelle was found dead on the floor of his cell. Medical evidence showed that he had been strangled about an hour after eating, by a cord held by two people as he lay on his bed with his head leaning against the bars of the cell. The next day Reynosa told Perumean, "we finally got the son of a *****," and later Silverstein told Perumean that he and Fountain had "yoked the *nigga* Fountain told another inmate, "I am glad we killed him," and Silverstein told another, "I am just sorry I had to kill him through the bars and couldn't get next to him."

    oh and that one day led to the lockdown of the prison (like the first quote mentions) and formations of the supermax adx:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence
    Last edited by JetLi'sFearless; 01-20-2007 at 10:10 PM.

  3. #3
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    There's one simple solution to this problem. Violent prisoners who hurt and kill people should get hung, not incarcerated.

  4. #4
    how come some hardened criminals and gang members are able to kill with such easy and little hesitation while everyone else has so much fear, adrenaline, regret, inhibitions, etc. before even confronting the target? Like in this aryan brotherhood case:
    http://online.ceb.com/calcases/C4/1C4t324.htm

    one guy was able to track down multiple family members of a man who defected form the gang and kill his dad with a sledge hammer just like that. Even when compared street fights to sport fights, there is so much more hesitation and its so much different casue the enemy usually fights with sueprhuman strengh to preserve themselves while your all nervous and forget any technique thats not a simple punch and might even turn into a haymaker machine from all your boxing training as a result of this anxiety and adrenaline and to want to end it as soon as possibel to "preserve your self". so how do those guys do it so easily and like its just business?

    Do you think you'd have the necessary killer instinct to survive in that world? Do you think youd have what it takes to do someone in to preserve yourself or your fmaily?
    Last edited by JetLi'sFearless; 01-21-2007 at 05:23 AM.

  5. #5
    cjurakpt Guest
    welcome back, Happeh...

    may the banning this time be swift and merciful

  6. #6
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    This is that retard kid with the prison rape fixation and the skinny but supposedly hard looking friend from Kazakhistan whose sister is a prostitute and who goes and criminally assaults supposed offenders on their doorsteps and then brags about it on web forums right?!

    Bye-bye!
    its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist

    Sometime blog on training esp in Japan

  7. #7
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    Hi Strangler!
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    As a mod, I don't have to explain myself to you.

  8. #8
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    It's backbreaker and his gay fixation with prison rape! yayyy!

    such a tiny little brain on him. still doesn't understand his own fetish and can't wrap that little tiny jellybean size brain around the dictionary definition of psychopaths and sociopaths.


    let the banning hammer fall on this one before i shat my breakfast.

    lunghushan- Horses are "hung", as am I, but convicts are "hanged".

    ever since the saddam thing, I've found myself having to redefine this word over and over again after listen to people go on and on about the size of saddam package.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  9. #9
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    Do you think you'd have the necessary killer instinct to survive in that world? Do you think youd have what it takes to do someone in to preserve yourself or your fmaily?

    Reply]
    To survive an incounter, yes, but to survive in that world long term, no. I would take my family and move to the peaceful suburbs and enjoy suburbia.
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by JetLi'sFearless View Post
    how come some hardened criminals and gang members are able to kill with such easy and little hesitation while everyone else has so much fear, adrenaline, regret, inhibitions, etc. before even confronting the target?
    It's very simple. It's called BRAIN DAMAGE. They've done studies and these people don't have any function in the part of the brain where conscience and compassion reside. That's why they call them PSYCHOPATHS. Some of them are also XYY.

  11. #11
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    casue the enemy usually fights with sueprhuman strengh to preserve themselves

    Reply]
    Not so, they just have elevated levels of preditory agression...and are insane to the point of not having fear. They have no superior strength, or technique. they are still just men.

    >>while your all nervous and forget any technique thats not a simple punch and might even turn into a haymaker machine from all your boxing training as a result of this anxiety and adrenaline and to want to end it as soon as possibel to "preserve your self".

    Reply]
    I have been in situations where it become life or death (Lost controll of a car doing 100+ a few times). I remaned very calm, and reacted as needed to keep the car from hitting the wall. No panic fear, or forgetting my skills. That all happened to me after the fact, when it had become safe.

    >>so how do those guys do it so easily and like its just business?

    Reply]
    They are criminally insane. They have defective brains, and really donot see the difference between killing people, and hunting for dinner.

    In a more primative world, they would have been executed the first time they savagely murdered a tribsman. The traits they exibit are flaws, not strengths. Only in recent times have monsters like this been allowed to continue living. Thier behavior and savagery resulted in them haveing very short lives prior to our modern world. They are not examples of evolutionary sucsess stories.
    Last edited by Royal Dragon; 01-21-2007 at 11:58 AM.
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


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  12. #12
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    It's the nice liberal (for lack of a better term) people who think that these people should be locked up instead of executed. But does it really help things?

    Well yes, it removes them from the general population, but then there are a lot of problems within the prison system. (Which is to be expected with so many violent people with so much time on their hands).

    So either execute them or stop complaining about 'problems' (problems which were created) in the system. Anyways, as for the 'could you protect' your family, as shown in wars over and over again, regular men are more than capable of fighting to protect their country and family.

    In a lot of ways, the system protects these criminals. If there weren't cops protecting them, a lot of people would already have been killed by the relatives of the people they hurt.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by lunghushan View Post
    It's very simple. It's called BRAIN DAMAGE. They've done studies and these people don't have any function in the part of the brain where conscience and compassion reside. That's why they call them PSYCHOPATHS. Some of them are also XYY.

    but thats what makes them sof earless and ruthless, and be able to do basically anything without holding back. They [probably make the best soldiers, and assasins. And also alot of us would have or do ahve inhibitions in confronting someone and just thinking say of a fight but not actually killing them, cause of fear not cause of compassion cause the other guy might reall deserve it. These guys have no fear. For instance not long ago I punched a guy straight in the face after he started grabbing something out of my hand and disrespecting me with his friends and trying to start a fight, right after though I didnt capitalize on it and pulled a knife cause he pulled out some osrt of an air pistol or something and I was outnumbered so I did it to egt away and threatened him a bit, anyway than he challenged me and I turned aorund put the knife in my bag and waited for him to bring it on. At that time I had the "It"/ But another time after that I was riving form a grocery store and I stopped in the middle of the road just before tunring cause some guy with a baby and a gf all of a sudden staretd walking, anyway they were walking hell of slow and on top of it the guy started claling me a b-tch and stuff. Anyway I kinda stopped in the middle of the road and flipped him off and started tlaking back but I had an inhibition from stopping him to confront him. Later I decided to anyway so i went back and parked in the parking lot and went to the supermarket to confront him. When i went I didnt expect to see him but when I did I had this huge inhibition to turn back and just leave. I dont know if it was the fact he had a wife and a baby and I think some other people were int he area, or casue it was just fear and on that day I was a punk bytch or not.
    Last edited by JetLi'sFearless; 01-21-2007 at 02:11 PM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by JetLi'sFearless View Post
    but thats what makes them sof earless adn ruthless, and be able to do basically anything without holding back. They [probably make the best soldiers, and assasins.
    Yeah, and I guess that's something you should look up to if you are a deluded teenager like the Columbine killers.

    SEEK PROFESSIONAL HELP.

  15. #15
    Not so, they just have elevated levels of preditory agression...and are insane to the point of not having fear. They have no superior strength, or technique. they are still just men.
    ok let me demonstrate a point. I put a guy not long ago in a choke hold where I grabbed one of my arms under his armpit and linked it to the other arm which was around his throat and he freaking broke it by moving his head and bdoy forward, in a feat Ive never seen. And I never experienced having to use so much strengh just to keep close to him and the guy never trained and even worked out much to my knowledge. How does he do something you dont see guys in the ufc even do?
    Last edited by JetLi'sFearless; 01-21-2007 at 02:18 PM.

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