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Thread: Iron Shirt Qigong

  1. #1

    Iron Shirt Qigong

    Can someone tell me about Iron Shirt Qigong?

    Is there any truth in it? Can it really protect the body like some sort of body armour? What does the training entail?

    Many thanks,

    S
    Black Mantis

  2. #2
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    Exclamation Iron Shirt QIGONG

    I would exercise caution. This type of "Internal Training" is dangerous, directly associated with Eastern Mysticism and ..in my opinion from a christian point of veiw....to be avoided at all costs.
    When in the realm of the spirit-world...one needs the protection of Jesus Christ and the power of His Blood , along with The Holy Spirit's Presence.


    JDK


    Are There Dangerous Qigong Teachers PART I

    Unscrupulous Qigong teachers can be dangerous to your wealth, health, intellect and spirit.

    Two examples of people donating large sums of money to organizations will be given. There are many other examples. The danger of these con men is their charm. They pretend to be your best friend, care about your welfare and "feel your pain". Many victims, even after they know that they have been taken, still adore these con artists.

    One well-known guru was driven around in a Rolls Royce. His followers donated money to him, while they lived in poverty in an ashram in Oregon. He did not impose a moral code on his followers and beatings were documented at the ashram. He died in prison.

    Another famous story involves a prisoner who practiced breath control. Without being detected he could cause pages of a book to move by blowing. He pretended to be a born again Christian and converted many inmates by causing the pages of a bible to move and attributing this to the Holy Spirit. After being released, he opened a Kung Fu school and had a large following because of his mystical powers. He became famous and was even invited to Egypt to treat Anwar Sadat. One wealthy man had donated large sums of money to this charlatan and began to spend hours meditating in his room. His sister became suspicious and hired Randi the magician to investigate this martial artist. One of his tricks was to cause a dollar bill under a fish tank to move by blowing in a small space between the tank and the table. Randi distracted him and turned the tank so there was no longer any space between the tank and the table. The Kung Fu artist could not make the dollar bill move. Randi made it move by blowing in the crack, which now faced him. The martial artist thought Randi was a Master and wanted to study with him. This con artist also persuaded some of his students to get guns for him. He was arrested and jailed on a weapons charge. He escaped from jail and still at large. This story appeared in a popular Kung Fu magazine. Even though this con artist had been exposed, it was hinted that some of his powers were real.

    Both sleep paralysis and narcolepsy can induce vivid hallucinations since the sufferer is "awake" in a REM sleep state. Some of these people can vividly describe being kidnapped by aliens and having operations performed on them. There are even marks where the instruments used in the procedures were inserted. One explanation of these marks is that these people are in a hypnotic state due to sleep paralysis or narcolepsy. The mind influences the body, which causes the marks to appear. Not many people believe these stories. However, millions of people believe Qigong Masters when they describe their travels in other dimensions, new forms of Qigong, extraordinary powers, etc. Two masters can have entirely different methods and interpretations of reality. Both claim millions of followers. Can they both be right, each have part of the truth or are they delusional? Do you believe that any Qigong system has millions of followers? Any Qigong teacher or long time practitioner will know that many students quit after a few lessons or don't practice regularly. Are such students followers?

    The danger of belonging to such a cult is that it dulls the intellect. Some people become mindless robots and accept everything at face value instead of using logic, science or proper statistical methods. For example, a common claim is that a Master can cure any disease. This fact has never been verified.

    In spiritual Qigong most Masters warn their students not to use any esoteric powers that they gain - for example, don't spend time treating sick people. Some reasons given are that one can be injured by the evil that is causing the disease or that you really can't cure a sick person because it's his karma to be sick. Such advice will keep a disciple on the spiritual path, but is not conducive to the development of science.

    There are many example of Qigong masters in China and elsewhere who used fake photos, chemically treated paper which catches fire and other carnival tricks to impress their followers. Other phenomena can be explained using Physics or Physiology. For instance, to convince a student that he was injecting Qi, the Master would push hard on the student's eyeballs. This would cause flashes of light, which were interpreted as Qi flow. Sometimes it was the students who used trickery to impress non-believers in the powers of their Master.

    and excessive practice of Qigong and meditation can cause psychoses. Such cases have been documented in a book on the Kundalini experience. Now there is even the medical term "Qigong psychotic reaction" listed in the diagnostic manual of the American Psychiatric Association. The dangers of excessive practice are also known in China. Dr. Zhang Tongling of Beijing Medical University found in a study of 145 people that fanatical Qigong practice could bring out latent psychiatric problems and cause hallucinations. She runs a clinic for obsessive Qigong practitioners.

    Preoccupation with Qigong can also cause ardent practitioners to become dysfunctional and neglect necessary daily tasks or dull ambition so that one does not reach his full potential

    Seizures can also result from improper or excessive practice of Qigong or meditation. These seizures become easier to induce with practice. Some Masters regard seizures as a form of religious ecstasy. This behavior should be investigated scientifically. It is more common in Indian meditation, since many teachers don't emphasize putting the tongue on the roof of the mouth to connect the Du and Ren channels so that excess energy does not get stuck in the head.

    Improper practice or the wrong kind of Qigong can cause many physical problems such as hair loss, dizziness, headaches, nausea, difficult breathing, etc. Concentrating on acupoints can lead to Qi stagnation and other problems. Improper breathing can raise or lower the blood pressure. Strenuous Qigong and low postures are contraindicated in pregnancy or during menstruation. People with arthritis or injured joints should not practice certain postures. Gentle movements are better than static movements for certain conditions such as hemorrhoids. Qigong that creates heat is not suitable for people who suffer from a hot, Yang condition such as inflammation. Improper posture can cause chronic pain in any part of the body.

    The proper practice of Qigong can also cause problems for certain students. The teacher should warn the students of these problems and not prescribe that type of Qigong if the student doesn't have the will power to resist temptations. For example certain forms of Qigong can increase one's appetite for food and/ or sex.

    Energetic problems such as deranged flow of Qi and blood, stagnation of Qi and blood. Leaking of genuine Qi and unchecked flow of pathogenic Qi can occur. A teacher should be able to recognize and treat such problems and any others which occur.
    [/COLOR]

    .
    "It's not WHO'S right...its WHAT'S right" Truth Comes from many Sources
    so try and disregard WHO is saying it..and explore if WHAT is being said has any Truth to It.
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  3. #3
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    Iron Shirt QIGONG PART II

    During lectures by Qigong Masters, there are people who exhibit spontaneous movements; others don't. Some people claim to have been cured of diseases. Similar phenomena occur with Christian and Russian faith healers. Are they using Qi? Why doesn't everyone move or be cured if the Master is so powerful? Studies in China have shown that there is no correlation between the movements of the patient and the Master. This seems logical because different people have different blockages to their Qi flow. The injected Qi breaking through these blockages probably causes the movement.

    A large component of a legitimate healing at such an event may be belief. The mind can control the body. There are people with split personalities having one personality well while another has diabetes. An interesting experiment would be to publicize a non-healer as a Master and see how many people he could heal. These results could be compared to those obtained by a healer who is unknown to the audience.


    Most authorities estimate that it can take years to teach someone to project Qi for healing purposes. Dr. Y. Omura devised a new method and taught some children to project healing Qi in less than a week. This method was not tried on adults, so it is not certain if it is faster than conventional training. According to the Taoist's theory of aging, children should be able to learn Qi projection faster than adults. However, some of the children suffered side effects and he is no longer teaching this method. Dr. Omura also detected abnormalities in the meridians of practitioners of certain forms of Qigong. It is not known if these abnormalities are permanent or harmful in the long run. He also devised methods to avoid certain side effects of Qigong practice. However, some people think that some side effects are a way for the body to cure itself and should not be stopped. For example, the body may be discharging toxins. They eventually stop on their own with practice. The interested reader can find further details in Dr. Omura's J. of Electroacupuncture.

    Neither my teacher, Gin Foon Mark, nor I have ever met anyone that could push people without physical contact. Their technique works on their own students or others with a similar mind set who are suggestible or believe in such things. Most such Masters admit that they can't push some people because they are not open to absorbing Qi properly and will only become ill. Masters of empty force estimate that they can push from 3 to 6 out of 10 people without contact. Some students of such teachers said that they don't have to move but they just jump to show respect to their Master or because they feel his Qi and jump to rid themselves of this unpleasant sensation. The danger with this type of training is that some students believe that such techniques are good for self-defense. Even if such techniques worked on 9 out of 10 people you could be killed in a random encounter.

    What is an empty force Master doing? If he is actually exerting a force, then he should be able to push a chair. So far no empty force Master has been able to do this. Another more plausible explanation is that his Qi contains some information, which influences some control system in the body, which in turn causes the movement. This is how a minute current can cause a crane to lift tremendous loads.

    Remarks

    Some Masters claim to project external qigong during their lectures. One such lecture in the Shanghai Auditorium, which can hold more than 18,000 people, occurred on March 7, 1990. It is described in the Xinmin Evening Paper. During the six hour lecture many in the audience began to shout, laugh, cry and move about A young worker, Pan Jiangang, experienced heart palpitations, a flushed face, and sweated profusely. Eventually, he ran out frightened for his life. Guo Daiwu, an officer in the Industrial and Commercial Bureau, danced for joy in the stands. He began to spit white foam and died. Some people claimed to be cured of diseases.



    Meng Jikong, a leader of the Hengyang Acrobatic Troupe in Hunan province was not a Qigongist. He wanted to expose these fraudulent Qigong lectures. He billed himself as a super-qigongist and widely advertised that he was going to hold a Qigong Lecture using super Qigong to heal diseases. Over one thousand believers attended the meeting. Forty percent of the audience could not sit still and had all sorts of strange reactions. This is about the same proportion of the audience that exhibit reactions during a Qigong lecture by a so-called Master. After the lecture, Meng confessed that he did not study Qigong and could not project external Qi, but caused the people to move by suggestion.


    However, in some forms of Qigong, such as standing on the stake, unpleasant sensations and pain are quite common. You must have guidance on how to overcome these sensations. Man is distinguished from other animals by his intelligence. Thus, the ultimate authority should be your brain and not your feelings[/COLOR]
    Last edited by JDK; 01-22-2007 at 10:12 AM.
    "It's not WHO'S right...its WHAT'S right" Truth Comes from many Sources
    so try and disregard WHO is saying it..and explore if WHAT is being said has any Truth to It.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackmantis View Post
    Can someone tell me about Iron Shirt Qigong?

    Is there any truth in it? Can it really protect the body like some sort of body armour? What does the training entail?

    Many thanks,

    S
    Iron Vest/Shirt/Jacket training has two schools of material. Those that use external methods, hitting the body with sticks, wire hitters, socks full of beans, rocks and steel shot. Little or no qi gong is used in this method. Basically building up the tolerance to accept pain and abuse.

    The internal version uses movement to stretch and strengthen the fascia of the body. Doing this causes it to thicken and strengthen it. Add these movement exercises to the standing exercises and you create a powerful root and the ability to absorb more abuse than someone who has never trained it.

    There is very little spiritual training involved with iron vest training.

    The warning from JDK is unfounded and clouded by his rather apparent right wing christianity.

    Be well,

    Dale Dugas
    Last edited by Dale Dugas; 01-21-2007 at 06:04 AM.
    Mouth Boxers have not the testicular nor the spinal fortitude to be known.
    Hence they hide rather than be known as adults.

  5. #5
    Cool, thanks for the ideas both of you, though I'm not really interested in Christian ideas on Martial Arts so I'll steer clear of that.

    Does the internal method work well? I mean, can masters of Iron Shirt truly withstand full blown attacks? Isn't Pak Mei supposed to have been able to do this?

    Hmmm, any more thoughts?
    Black Mantis

  6. #6
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    I can answer that: "Yes, they can."

    But more importantly, do they have "Iron Palm"?

    I know there's mixed consensus on the reality of Iron Qi Kung........but I can tell you, whether or not it's real or fake, people who claim to do Iron Palm hit like a friggin' freight train. Their punches aren't that much harder than mine. Their bones just make such a startling impact.

    And mine do nothing against the iron shirts I've met.

    Then again.......go to Youtube and type in "Sifu Glen"......and have a big laugh at CMA's expense.

    That guy is hilarious......it's all in the hair.......

  7. #7
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    if you dont have a proper teacher for it. dont do it. thats all i can say. dont believe the mysticism crap jdk posted. he's one of those people that think anything non christian is satanic and occult. its ok its who he is. but unless you have a proper teacher for any iron body training, just go buy a 20lb iron chestplate
    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho Mantis View Post
    Genes too busy rocking the gang and scarfing down bags of cheetos while beating it to nacho ninjettes and laughing at the ridiculous posts on the kfforum. In a horse stance of course.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Dugas View Post
    Iron Vest/Shirt/Jacket training has two schools of material. Those that use external methods, hitting the body with sticks, wire hitters, socks full of beans, rocks and steel shot. Little or no qi gong is used in this method. Basically building up the tolerance to accept pain and abuse.

    The internal version uses movement to stretch and strengthen the fascia of the body. Doing this causes it to thicken and strengthen it. Add these movement exercises to the standing exercises and you create a powerful root and the ability to absorb more abuse than someone who has never trained it.
    Dale Dugas
    Herbal pills are also used in conjunction with this training.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Dugas View Post
    The warning from JDK is unfounded and clouded by his rather apparent right wing christianity.
    I am forced to agree...

  10. #10

    cult in eastern paths

    JDK, quotes as part of his view that iron shirt practice is involved in cults....Hmm..and from his over the top ramming down the throat of his rather blinkered view I would suggest his view is rather cult like
    Kune Belay Sau

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wong Ying Home View Post
    JDK, quotes as part of his view that iron shirt practice is involved in cults....Hmm..and from his over the top ramming down the throat of his rather blinkered view I would suggest his view is rather cult like
    you actually read all that? i didnt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho Mantis View Post
    Genes too busy rocking the gang and scarfing down bags of cheetos while beating it to nacho ninjettes and laughing at the ridiculous posts on the kfforum. In a horse stance of course.

  12. #12

    ShaolinLueb

    Actually I scanned it very quickly.

    There is a very small amountof mertit in terms of incorrect practice is harmfull, which no one disagrees with hence make sure you find a good teacher.

    BUt he is mixing, kundalini practice with iron shirt and it is different thing, and then wrapping it all up in his own personal views of religion. I have no issue with a point of view being put arcoss,,,,,,,but all he did was cut and paste from other courses....so he is not exactly speaking from personal experience...and there fore can't really comment as he has no knowledge of what he is talking about.
    Kune Belay Sau

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Dugas View Post
    Iron Vest/Shirt/Jacket training has two schools of material. Those that use external methods, hitting the body with sticks, wire hitters, socks full of beans, rocks and steel shot. Little or no qi gong is used in this method. Basically building up the tolerance to accept pain and abuse.

    The internal version uses movement to stretch and strengthen the fascia of the body. Doing this causes it to thicken and strengthen it. Add these movement exercises to the standing exercises and you create a powerful root and the ability to absorb more abuse than someone who has never trained it.

    There is very little spiritual training involved with iron vest training.

    The warning from JDK is unfounded and clouded by his rather apparent right wing christianity.

    Be well,

    Dale Dugas
    Hi Dale,

    You are absolutely right on on your desription of two different types or schools of Iron Vest/Shirt/Jacket.

    I made a mistake in my posts by not citing the sources...that were not me I clipped and pasted them from other sites. So if you have a problem with the Info....take it up with them

    Here is another genuine QI Gong teacher who states the following warning:

    Section four (chs. 18-19) is on “Qi Deviations in Qigong Training.” The basic concept here is that qi moves in patterns that are natural to the seasons and can deviate in various ways. All changes in the body that are not part of the natural cycle are then precursors to disease. After a general discussion of these issues, the author emphasizes that while it is good to build up qi, too much qi can be dangerous and unleashed currents may be more harmful than good. He focuses especially on the dangers to the mind, what he calls “soul and spirit deviations” or, in Western terms, neuroses and psychoses. He sees these deviations as turbid qi rising to the head but also in the form of ghosts, spirits, and other yin-yang beings that influence people’s lives. In all cases, treatments include not only physical Qigong but also meditative methods.

    http://www.daoiststudies.org/review.johnson.php

    Here is another: " Identify the benefits and dangers of qigong
    http://www.healthpositive.com/MoreQCEH.htm
    "It's not WHO'S right...its WHAT'S right" Truth Comes from many Sources
    so try and disregard WHO is saying it..and explore if WHAT is being said has any Truth to It.
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    Part Ii

    Since kundalini yoga has much in commom with Chinese Meditation and QI Gong exersises...I post his article. And before anyone says WHY IS HE TALING ABOUT YOGA!!! WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH INTERNAL ARTS PRACTICE ???

    I can only hope someone else on this Board has the knowledge and courage to point out the varius similarities..... anything we do to tap into the subconcious mind or spirit -world poses potential danger.A...doesnt happen all the tiem..but why take the chance?

    We are in the Flesh now...NOT in the spirit.
    I believe we should steer clear of involving ourselves in the spirit world ( however you choose to veiw it or label it) and take care of the physical things required while we are in human form. After death we will occupy a spirit body for all eternity!

    JDK

    If we take the psychological perspective and view kundalini
    as the power latent in our unconscious then it is easy to
    understand that awakening this force is going to bring a
    greater amount of unconscious material into our
    consciousness. Even in the best of circumstances this is
    likely to be uncomfortable and if an individual is barely
    coping with his unconscious even under normal
    circumstances then awakening kundalini may push the
    individual over into psychosis. This phenomenon has been
    documented many times.


    Forceful methods of awakening kundalini pose additional
    dangers. Because quite forceful methods can be used to
    awaken kundalini these techniques themselves are
    potentially physically and mentally disruptive. An
    individual named Gopi Krishna awakened his kundalini by
    doing unguided meditation on his crown cakra. His life after
    awakening was both blessed by ecstatic bliss and tormented
    by physical and mental discomfort.
    Eventually his
    experience stabilized.

    He wrote down his experiences in a
    recently re-released autbiography entitled ``Living with
    Kundalini.'' [Gopi Krishna's autobiography appears to be an
    honest representation of his experiences but it is only one
    extreme datapoint in the panorama of experience on
    kundalini yoga. It represents dangers in forceful unguided
    practice but it is not representative of a typical
    practicioner's experience.


    http://paranormal.se/faq/kundalin.faq
    Last edited by JDK; 01-22-2007 at 10:43 AM.
    "It's not WHO'S right...its WHAT'S right" Truth Comes from many Sources
    so try and disregard WHO is saying it..and explore if WHAT is being said has any Truth to It.
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  15. #15
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    spirituality?

    What does any of this have to do with martial arts?! the only question that was asked was whether or not Iron Shirt training was "real" or not and what the training entails. I don't see where there is any call for a religious/spiritual debate to be brought up.

    Here's my take on Iron shirt training that my instructor taught me:

    Bone develops calcium deposits whenever exposed to trauma ie. rolling a 30 lb. iron bar on your forearms, these deposits compress where there would be pockets of air in the bone and result in a denser matter making the bone stronger and able to withstand more punishment. As for the chest area, a student uses a makiwari board and beats it across his chest. This trauma causes red blood cells to rush to the affected area and reinforce the muscle tissue making it denser and able to withstand more punishment. This is called science, plain and simple, any spirituality associated with the training comes from it's historical background to interpret how and why doing these techniques will give you a tough and sturdy hide that would be like wearing an "iron shirt". There's no reason to bring up a religious debate on a scientific practice. It doesn't matter what religion you follow and it's no one else's business to go preaching about whether or not to pursue an alternative form of spirituality.

    Chrisitianity, Kundalini, Yoga, Hindu, all of these are moot in point and fail to answer the question. Let's stay on topic.
    We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit.
    - Aristotle

    The only way of finding the limits of the possible is by going beyond them into the impossible.
    - Arthur C. Clarke

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