Free your mind......

[Tom Kagan]

Absolutely nothing Tom... why don't you tell us a little about yourself. Let us get to know the real you


anyway... Tom... I hear what you're saying and I don't want this to turn into a competition. I totally agree... in the end.... skills prevail, but my original post was not about skill... it's about keeping an open mind and LISTENING to what others have to say. Now I didn't say BELIEVE everything you hear.... that would be silly. But not listening at all...or having selective hearing (blind spots ala reading or hearing) is equally damaging. Anyone who has ever read any or my posts know I'm all about being able to do what you say you can do, I'm not much for martial arts history or politics.... but what I am about is bettering myself, and to me... to me... bettering myself has always been about listening with an open mind, analyze the data, and see what good can come from it. If it's bad?..... I put it aside... discard it.... no skin off my back. THAT is the message I'm trying to get across.

So you pick an online "fight" if you wish... I won't have any part of it. But if you want to tone it down a bit and communicate on a level of mutual respect then hey.... that is great.

Anyway, all I hope is that wing chun and every other martial art torn apart by inner feuds... can put ego's aside and help eachother to become great...... instead of marketing the "One True Wing Chun"

OP = Original Poster.


Suppose, for a moment, someone invited you to a lecture given by the Society of Neo-Nazi Misogynistic Child Molesters.

Now, before you could say anything, they also suggest you "keep an open mind. You don't have to BELIEVE everything. Just come and listen."

What would your reaction be?


A veneer of politeness does not mean "mutual respect." In fact, in some societies - such as the one where this style originated - one way to show great disrespect is to become so overly polite as to almost a point of absurdity.

You offered your opinion in a forum of public review. I strongly disagree with many tenets of what you suggest. And, I refuted them by offering my own passionate opinion in their place. (I'll admit it took me three posts to meander through the complete thoughts I was mulling over, and I started with a response to a tangental post. ) However, now you appear to believe that somehow I've managed to show a lack of "mutual respect" because I've done this in a strong fashion; you think I'm picking an online fight.

Nothing could be further from the truth. (And, if that was your impression, then my apologies you feel that way.)

If I did not have "mutual respect" for your post, I wouldn't have bothered to respond at all. I would have kept my refutations to myself. It would have been much easier for me to ignore you. But I didn't.

Why didn't I? Because I felt it was important to express an alternative viewpoint to yours. I did not want to avoid or ignore the "issue": that you think this style is "torn apart by inner feuds." Well, I don't feel that way. What you see as a problem barely registers on my scale above background noise. In fact, in many ways, I consider what transpires from time to time a healthy outlet.

I have no problem if you wish to continue looking at things your way. You may or may not believe me when I say I understand where your viewpoint comes from. However, if you discount my alternative viewpoint out of hand as you appear to have done, what does that action say with regards to your viewpoint about keeping an open mind?

[leejunfan]

Tom Tom Tom..... come come now!!! you are comparing having an open mind in martial arts to a "Society of Neo-Nazi Misogynistic Child Molesters"?!?!?!

Don't you think you are taking my post waaaaaaay out to left field? Like I said before... I understand where you are coming from. You don't HAVE t listen to everyone... heck... 90% of the postsw here I pay absolutely no mind to... especially when I see the bickering start. I'm glad that you understand what i was getting at and we'll leave it at that..... but try not to take it in a direction so extreme.....ok? wow

I don't understand why you disagree with me... I thought my post was simple and to the point but let me put it another way. THIS forum has a habit of constant flame wars. I read the posts and think to myself "WOW... these guys just aren't listenng to eachother." Hence the reason why I try hard (but don't always succeed) not to get involved with such nonsense. I think a lot gets lost in the translation over the cold world of the internet. I'm sure.... if everyone on this forum were to meet face to face the "tone" of the conversations would be much different.

Anyway..... thanks for participating and I truly appreciate your views. It does give one some food for thought, Thanks.

[NJM]

OP = Original Poster.


Suppose, for a moment, someone invited you to a lecture given by the Society of Neo-Nazi Misogynistic Child Molesters.

Now, before you could say anything, they also suggest you "keep an open mind. You don't have to BELIEVE everything. Just come and listen."

Hey, I'd here them out.

[tjwingchun]

Hey, I'd here them out.

While poring petrol over them and applying a lighted match!

[tjwingchun]

Now why did I go through the trouble of typing this out for you... my kung fu brothers and sisters? To share in the wisdom of these words. You see...... in our family... the Wing Chun family..... there is a lot of bickering about who is right...who is wrong... what the true history is... and what is isn't, and after a while (quite quickly in fact) people are not listening to eachother completely. They are not truly "hearing" and "understanding" what the other has to say. This works to the detriment of our family and gives more power to those who would see us fail.

So I say this to you all: Open your mind and free yourselves of your Wing Chun ego's. Embrace everything Wing Chun.... good or bad... provide proof of your skills or lineage instead of resorting to the same old " 'cause Sifu said " excuses. Lip service does nothing to nurture our beloved WCK.

Amitabha

I hear your words and understand the sentiment as I have been saying much the same for many years, however it is not "Wing Chun ego" that is the problem, simply EGO.

Until people are comfortable and believe in themselves they will always put others down to make them feel superior, hence bigotry, prejudice and bullying.

Knowledge is power, ignorance a blight that can be healed with patience and time.

[drleungjohn]

No harm,no foul-it just doesn't read that way to me,the way you wrote it-no biggie-

take care

[Tom Kagan]

No harm,no foul-it just doesn't read that way to me,the way you wrote it-no biggie-

take care

No problem. Chiropractors get a bad rap at times. I understand why a chiropractor might be a bit sensitive about the "image" which can get portrayed.

Regardless, If you had said the reverse, I would have discussed whatever situation with M.D.s and D.O.s I could think of instead. Your tangential post was just the impetuous I used as a pretext to hash out some of my thoughts publicly. They have very little to do with chiropractics at all.

Tom Tom Tom..... come come now!!! you are comparing having an open mind in martial arts to a "Society of Neo-Nazi Misogynistic Child Molesters"?!?!?!

So, you are closed minded about this issue? Do you think it would have been a better example if I suggested the "Society of Neo-Nazi Misogynistic Child Molesting Martial Artists" instead?

Don't you think you are taking my post waaaaaaay out to left field? Like I said before... I understand where you are coming from. You don't HAVE t listen to everyone... heck... 90% of the postsw here I pay absolutely no mind to... especially when I see the bickering start. I'm glad that you understand what i was getting at and we'll leave it at that..... but try not to take it in a direction so extreme.....ok? wow

Taking an argument to an extreme in order to better illustrate the logical flaws inherent in an argument is perfectly valid. Sorry, but the example you consider extreme is, in reality, very far from the logical conclusion of what constitutes an "open mind."

The very idea of having an "open mind" - the notion where all ideas and viewpoints are equally valid - is a 2,000 year old Sophist argument (read: "invalid"). Did you really expect to get away with that without someone calling you on it with a 2,000 year old Socratic argument as a rebuttal?

[I don't understand why you disagree with me... I thought my post was simple and to the point but let me put it another way. THIS forum has a habit of constant flame wars. I read the posts and think to myself "WOW... these guys just aren't listenng to eachother." Hence the reason why I try hard (but don't always succeed) not to get involved with such nonsense. I think a lot gets lost in the translation over the cold world of the internet. I'm sure.... if everyone on this forum were to meet face to face the "tone" of the conversations would be much different.

I disagree with the very premise of what you are saying. From that, I don't think it is difficult to understand why I also don't agree with some of your proposed solutions. You haven't explained why the Ving Tsun scene should be any different than any other MA scene. Albeit in a roundabout way, I explained why I felt this way and offered my own premise in its place.

Avoiding issues with petty bickering is no different than avoiding them with a call to sing a grand chorus of Kumbaya. It "fixes" nothing - assuming I agree with what you suggest is "broken" in the first place - (which I actually don't).

"People are always talking to you about truth. Everybody always knows what the truth is, like it was toilet paper or something and they got a supply in the closet. But what you learn as you get older is that there ain't no truth. All there is, is Bullsh1t, layers of it. One layer of Bullsh1t layered on top of another. And what you do in life, like as you get older, is you pick the layer of Bullsh1t you prefer, and it's your Bullsh1t, so to speak."

-- Bernie LaPlante

[leejunfan]

wow Tom.... nevermind man..... you keep living your life and I'll live mine... I'm happy that the others that contributed to this thread understand where I'm coming from at least.

peace.....

[Tom Kagan]

wow Tom.... nevermind man..... you keep living your life and I'll live mine... I'm happy that the others that contributed to this thread understand where I'm coming from at least.

peace.....

But I do understand where you are coming from. I'm just wondering: can you honestly say the same for my case? Why does it seem I am the only one who also contributed and also understands where you are coming from does not also make you happy?

Do you think perhaps a major part of that reason is because I don't agree with "what sifu [you] said" ?
















Okay, the last question was me tweaking/trolling in good ol'fashioned internet fun. I'm not really serious on that one.

It would be nice if you could if you could attempt to clarify why I should be concerned with those threads in the same fashion as you which prompted you to start this thread, though. I tend to get involved in threads which I believe I can reasonably discuss over the internet. If you look at my posting history, you'll see my choices of threads in which to participate lean very much towards ones like this one you started. (The "how do I hold my TanSao?" type threads are beyond my abilities to discuss sufficiently in solely an online forum via the written word.)

[PaulH]

Well, without further ado, I think Tom's arguments against the perils of open mindedness are in line with Benjamin Franklin's witty remark - something like love thy neighbors but don't pull down the hedges. That said, objectivity when done in an uncaring spirit or cold professionalism often disconnect and alienate people. This separation from life around us and within us in the name of objectivity is a poor trade-off for simple humanity and compassion in my opinion.

[lonewolf]

while people like to argue about what is "true" and what isn't what should be important is if the style really works these days as it was intended. lineage can be kept intact for the purpose of the art form itself but when it comes to the self defense properties of the art that can only be determined by sparring. in the end the reason that these arts were developed to begin with was self defense purposes. is lineage and right and wrong really important when its the effectiveness that needs to be tested.

[shaolinsky]

I would have to agree to that last.

[Matrix]

This separation from life around us and within us in the name of objectivity is a poor trade-off for simple humanity and compassion in my opinion.

Well said Paul.

[PaulH]

Thanks, Bill. It remains to be seen whether this indeed can be well done.

[Matrix]

It remains to be seen whether this indeed can be well done.

We can always hope.
Peace.