Yang Jwing-Ming's Shaolin Long Fist?

[Simple_Jedi]

Is Yang Jwing-Ming's Shaolin Long Fist really Shaolin?

Coz I've seen his Shaolin book and the basic forms in there don't match the 10 basic forms or sets found in Bak Sil Lum or the Songshan Shaolin.

[HuangKaiVun]

I don't want to sound like a troll, but does it really matter to you if it is or isn't?

[Simple_Jedi]

Just curious about the relation?

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Simple_Jedi
Is Yang Jwing-Ming's Shaolin Long Fist really Shaolin?

Coz I've seen his Shaolin book and the basic forms in there don't match the 10 basic forms or sets found in Bak Sil Lum or the Songshan Shaolin.

There are many different flavours of Shaolin. Even within a school forms can look different. This can be because of interpretation, personal style etc.

[GLW]

Well....if you read the stuff in the book...

His lineage is from Han Chingtan - to Li Maoching - to Yang Jwingming.

Han Chingtan learned from the Nanjing Central Guoshu Kuan. This school also had connection to the Chingwu.

The routines he teaches are Lien Bu Quan, Gong Li quan, Yi Lu and Er Lu Mei Fu Quan, Shi Tzu Tan, Xiao Huien Quan, Siu Lu Zhaquan, San Lu Pao Quan...

His Tan Tui is the 12 line variety. A couple of the routines he teaches were originally Mantis forms that were modified to fit within the long fist methods at the Nanjing school. The Zha Quan and Pao Quan routines are from the Islamic Zha or Cha Quan system...

His long fist is therefore the compilation system created by the Nanjing school filtered through Han then Li.

Yang's first style was White Crane so he may have some flavor of that as well in how he does things...it is hard to get away from your first style and foundation.

So...it is not strictly SHAOLIN....but it does have roots.

[Crimson Phoenix]

If I may add...

I believe Han Ching Tang didn't really learn from Nanjing, but rather belonged to the group that gave birth to its curriculum. It's out of my head which style now, but Han was already quite proficient in traditional northern style before the Nanjing curriculum was devised. I take it from Yang that Han was at the direct root of the creation of Er Lu Mai Fu, and to a lesser extent of Yi Lu Mai Fu.
As for Shaolin roots in Nanjing Longfist, GLW is correct: it is only linked to Shaolin to the extent that the styles Nanjing Longfist is based upon are (because Nanjing changquan is a composite style, a recent compilation of trad. styles, hence a "modern traditionnal style"). Style influencing Nanjing changquan are definitely cha quan and praying mantis, to which I'd add mizong quan (it's very obvious in some forms, and it is no secret that Huo Yuan Jia was a big influence there too, hence the presence of the 12 line tantuis, Lien Bu Quan, Gong Li Quan etc...).
So as GLW stated, there are definite roots rather than a direct link.

Also, GLW is correct when he mentions the influence of white crane in Yang's Longfist. It reminds me of a very funny scene with Li Mao Ching who, when we performed the first move of Gong Li Quan opened his eyes wide and yelled "what are you doing with your shoulders??" (yes, we incorporated a lot of white cranes shoulder power as it seems, because th pure Nanjing way of Li Mao Ching was a little more rigid in that area, no marked use of scapula power). Then he performed the move himself, and the difference was obvious at the scapula level. Seeing our faces, he let lose a corner-smile and waved his arms like wings while rolling his eyes and shaking his head.
So yes, there definitely is a white crane influence in Yang's northern style, although it seems to me that it rests just in the usage of scapula on hand techniques. Lower body usage seems to remain acceptable for Li hehehehehehhehe

[GLW]

Actually, the first group in the Nanjing school included people like Wang Ziping.

Han Chingtan was in a later generation from that. while he may have had some influence into the development of some of the forms, the work was started prior to him.

[run run shaw]

Hi everyone. I'm new to this forum, but I'd like to add a little bit to this thread. I agree with Crimson Phoenix. I believe that Han was already an accomplished martial artist before coming to Nanjing and that some of the forms in his lineage are from his own teaching. Although long fist is a composite system, the composition of the sets vary across teachers. What exactly is the Nanjing curriculum? I think lian bu, gong li, and a few others are standardized sets that often show up in long fist curriculums. I have never seen mai fu and shi zi tang sets taught outside of the Han lineage. San Lu Pao, Si Lu Cha, taizu are traditional sets and I don't think a standardized product of Nanjing. Check out this link for some interesting info:

http://www.geocities.com/yunhsinyoun...ndex1_eng.html

Out of curiosity, I'd be interested to know what sets other long fist stylists study. Anyone outside of the Han lineage? In our school, the mantis sets, Beng Bu and Xiao Hu Yen, are replaced by Shaolin sets, hong quan and lohan quan.

[SifuAbel]

I think CP and I are

<---------- "Eye To Eye" on this one.

[Crimson Phoenix]

heheheheh great spirits meet huh?

[Simple_Jedi]

That was the history lesson I was looking for.

[TienShanWarrior]

There are many different flavours of Shaolin. Even within a school forms can look different. This can be because of interpretation, personal style etc.

Unofrtunately, there is a misconception as to Shaolin styles is concern. If there is something as Shaolin it might be a coul of styles, however the fame of Shaolin comes from the 1800-1900 during the boxer uprising in which many secret societies, mainly Heaven and Earth, invented stories about Shaolin to create a patriotic ideal. The publication of a obscure book, called Secrets of Shaolin Temple that was edited and translated to english by R. Smith, was so popular that almost everyone else took it as the truth. Almost all the stories we hear nowadays about the temple come from that book. It is this reason, that made many teachers in China claim thier style was from Shaolin, and the snow ball just got bigger.

For anyone interested in a serious discussion about this topic, I reccomend the writings of Stanley Henning, this link has two of his articles. Another good place to go to is Journal of Asian MArtial Arts, their articles are more serious and thorough.

Cheers

http://www.northernchinesemartialart...articulos.html

[shaolinche]

We are not of the Han Qing Tang Lineage. These are some of the other sets we practice.

Fu Xing Quan yi
Fu Xing Quan er
qi xing quan \ dui da
lohan quan
ba gu liu tui
lian huan ba gun
liu he quan
cai shou dui da
sun bin quan
shaolin che
zhong xing duan gun
dan dao po hua qiang
qi xing tang lang quan
kun wu jian
tai zu pan long gun
xiao mei hua dao

There are others I will write them later

[Royal Dragon]

What is this form?

tai zu pan long gun

[Robert Young]

Since people are talking about My GM Han, Qing-Tan. I'll clear some of the puzzle here.

GM Han learned his Long Fist in Sang Dong province in northern China. The materials (Empty Hand forms) he passed down are mostly from Long Fist. GM Han also learned from several famous masters in Sang Dong Guo Shu Guan from the side of our own LF line. The old Masters in Sang Dong Institute like Chang, Bing-Zhang and Yang, Ming-Zai. The forms he taught from Nanjing Martial Art Institute are Lien-Bu, Gong-Li, and 10 routines Tan-Tui. I don't know where Yang's 12 routine Tan-Tui came from. Our Tan-Tui in LF line has only 10 routines. Gong-Li was from Shang-Hai Jin-Wu that the teachers in Nan-Jin Institute liked the form and adopted it like Lien-Bu and make it a standard form.

GM Han did not create Mai-Fu er lu. Mai-Fu routines are a standard LF form sets. It has several routines, but I don't really know how many routines. GM Han also taught 5th routine Mai-Fu to my teacher beside 1st and 2nd routines, so our line has it.

Before GM Han went to NanJing, he was already famous in Sang Dong. When he went to NanJing as a student, he was hired as assistant to do his research on his Qin-Na because of his expertise in that area. He actually got paid for that.

After graduated from Nang-Jin Institute, he was hired by the head of Chinese CIA, general Dai-Lee, to be the head coach in Chinese CIA simply because of his expertise in Qin-Na.

GM Han had practiced a lot more forms than he had passed down. My teacher, as a senior students of GM Han in Taiwan, had learned Xing-Yi, Ba-Gua, Yang's Tai-Chi, Shuao-Jiao and many other forms from GM Han. All Xing-Yi, Ba-Gua, and Yang's Tai-Chi were from NanJing Institute. To clarify, my teacher did not pass down Xing-Yi and Ba-Gua. Instead, he passed down other systems like Si-Chuan Hong-Jia, Yian-Qin, and some other southern systems.

After Nan-Jin, GM Han also taught at Han-Zou Guo Shu Guan in Je-Jiang province where Yang's Tai-Chi master, Yang's Chen-Pu, was the chief of education (Jiao Wu Zhan) in that Institute. Our Tai-Chi streight sword form was from that Insitute where GM Han learned directly from great Tai-Chi master Yang, Cheng-Pu.

Out LF does not have a set of standard forms per se. Every generations in the past added or removed some of the forms. GM Han added Lien-Bu and Gong-Li to our LF line. My teacher also added a another form called Liu-He (Six Harmony) into our line. My LF uncle Shen, Mao-Hui added another form into his line too. Personally, I added Basic (Chu-Ji) and Intermediate (Zhong Ji) forms from Nan-Jing Insitute into my standard empty hand sets. I did it because I think it will help my students for their Long Fist training.

FOr other general information, you can check my web site like Run Run Shaw mentioned, http://www.geocities.com/yunhsinyoun...ndex1_eng.html.



Cheers,