Mantis, Internal or External?

[Michael Dasargo]

the point is that there isn't really any difference.

'do watcha like'

(and I'll buy a beer for the first person who can tell me the musical group that line is from)

Digital Underground (Make that a red stripe )

Aeturnal

Internal is commonly associated with soft, passive-aggressive movements.

External is commonly associated with brute, assertive-aggressive type movements.

However, an External emphasis also refers to how something looks, while an Internal emphasis also refers to how something feels and functions.

What your thinking of as Nei Jia (Tai Chi, Xingyi, Bagua etc) are systems that are predominately composed of passive-aggressive training methods giving a soft and gentle look to the practice. However, the person playing it may only understand the look of the movements (an external expression), rather than the feel and function (an internal expression).

Likewise, a Muay Thai fighter may emphasize a passive-aggressive defense and focus on spiraling the spine to produce power, thus making such an expression of Muay Thai " soft" and "internal" in principle.

Internal and External is a matter of principle emphasis, and is not exclusive to individual systems.

Tai Chi, Xingyi, and Bagua fighters that I know do heavy bag and focus mitt work, while karate guys I know practice slow to refine the kinetics of individual techniques.

Mantis is balanced. The internal and external emphasis is matter of how you wish to train.

Hope it helps,
M.Dasargo

[bungbukuen]

Sorry Michael. I thought your explanation was confusing. Of course if I misread your post my apologies.

1) Mantis including most Chinese combat systems are both external and internal. I know you said this too.

2) Internal refers to internal energy training or qigong training. Mostly for health purposes. External refers to all other training which of course is fighting training. Any combat system that only trains qigong is not a combat system. It is a health system. By default all combat systems are external and as I mentioned most Chinese combat systems include internal qigong training as well.

3) On a side note, qigong training can also be divided into external and internal but that is a separate thing.

4) When talking about techniques most people end up confusing the words external and internal with the intended meaning direct (hard) and indirect (soft). But internal and external has nothing to do with techniques as I mentioned in point two. When talking about attacking methods we can talk about them in terms of direct or indirect.

5) Talking about fighting methods as passive or aggressive is confusing and gives the wrong impression. All attacking methods are aggressive. Even indiret meothods. There is nothing passive about intending to punch someone in the face, kick them in the knackers, or throw them to the ground. It is just a question of how you get there.

6) Traditional systems like Tai Ji, Baji and Xing Yi are both external and internal (fight training and qigong training). They use both direct and indirect techniques. Traditional training is neither soft nor gentle looking. It is tough and rough. Of course many Taji schools these days could not be considered combative as they only do forms and focus on the health aspects.

Just few thoughts.

BBK

[mantis108]

Oops... I swear it's the burbon, man, it's the burbon.

But then again I could easily get lost in America (shame on me being from the land of the Thirsty Traveller). So Asheville, eh?

Warm regards

Robert

[Oso]

Michael: give my your address. Although, I'm not going to send you a Red Stripe. I've got to do better than that. Every had a Barleywine style ale or a Scottish Wee Heavy ?





Robert

#1 it's Bourbon.

#2

AVL:

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp...&zipcode=28805

[mantis108]

Michael: give my your address. Although, I'm not going to send you a Red Stripe. I've got to do better than that. Every had a Barleywine style ale or a Scottish Wee Heavy ?





Robert

#1 it's Bourbon.

#2

AVL:

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp...&zipcode=28805

Hi Matt,

Thanks for the direction and the spelling lesson. So I am going to share with you what my good friend Mantid1 had shared with me his ultimate internal+external style's secret training tape (for free)!

This is top secret stuff, you understand so .... hush....

Ultimate Secret Style Training of All Time

Now, remember this stuff is too deadly for the street so once you learned this you must - forgeta bout it!

Yo, teachers leave the kids alone (what music group is that?)

Warm regards

Robert

[Oso]

WHAT????? you mean you don't believe in the Force?


tsk, tsk...Canadians...I guess I shouldn't expect any more....





and, it's Pink Floyd.





but, it seems the young jedi is not satisfied with our answers....

[Oso]

Styles are different expressions of the same energies.

Heed Oso's advice about a good teacher. I would train with the best teacher regardless of what he taught, EVEN TKD!!

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, please....not TKD!!!!


actually, somewhere around here, i have a yellow belt i got from a guy that in retrospect, was a good TKD teacher...though that was long ago, in a universe far, far away.

[RandyBrown]

My personal view on Internal/External is that every style starts out being external and evolves to internal. When moves are first studied and practiced they are usually unbalanced, uncoordinated, and performed with tension and resistance (in the muscles/tendons) from not being accustomed to moving in such a fashion. As time goes on and you do the move over and over and over again you develop the proper conditioning and you become more efficient with your moves. If you fight, you MUST do this or you become tired after 1 or 2 minutes of continuous fighting and you can't 'stay alive'.

Example: When first learning to punch, students usually have stiff shoulders, bad posture, try to add too much power (creating resistance), and lack any type of waist movement. As time passes and they've thrown the same punch thousands of times they begin to relax the shoulders, they realize they tire quickly with trying to tighten the arm muscles, and begin to incorporate the waist for more power. Eventually they learn to develop power with the entire body behind a strike creating even more power.

When I began Taijiquan and Xingyiquan I kept hearing - "internal, internal, the moves are supposed to be internal". No matter how slow or soft you perform a style it takes repetition of movement and more repetition of movement, to build strength, conditioning, and become relaxed enough to internalize it. A Taijiquan practioner that only does forms can call 'Peng' all they want in the front arm, but if they never train any type of resistance then the tendons will not be strong enough to deflect or ward off anything but a tuna sandwich. External leads to Internal, no matter the style. That's my thinking.

[hokfumantis]

I have been taught that 7-Star Mantis is perhaps the most rigid of all Northern Mantis styles. Yet it is classified as an internal style because of how the Chi should flow. What most internal styles have in common is how thier Chi Gung is practiced. Usually, the muscles of the upper extremities are relaxed throughout thier movements during the exercise; thereby training the energy to flow internally independent from muscular exertion. In some internal styles like 7-Star Mantis, the energy is released at the final release of air in the lungs (at the end of the exhale), which creates a short subtle snap before the arms are completely extended. Whereas in most external styles, the Chi Gung is practiced with their muscles in the upper extemities slightly or completely tensed; training the energy to travel within the muscles, (anatomically an external channel). Both internal and external styles have "rigid and soft" attacks. However, these types of attacks has nothing to do with what makes an internal or external style. In simple terms, its how the Chi is cultivated and used within the style, which classifies whether it is external or internal. I hope this helped!

[Three Harmonies]

Qi should flow naturally guys or you have a little problem called DEATH. All living things have qi. It has nothing to do with martial arts other than the living thing.

[Baqualin]

In simple terms, its how the Chi is cultivated and used within the style, which classifies whether it is external or internal. I hope this helped!

This is the most accurate statement yet. I never seen anything soft about a good Hsingi or Baqua fighter.

[Baqualin]

Qi should flow naturally guys or you have a little problem called DEATH. All living things have qi. It has nothing to do with martial arts other than the living thing.

[Oso]

Qi should flow naturally guys or you have a little problem called DEATH. All living things have qi. It has nothing to do with martial arts other than the living thing.

yea!

qi happens.

[Oso]

the number one thing killing chinese martial arts in america is the shroud of mystery and hoopajoo that people want to surround it with.

Aeturnal, i hope you have a good experience if you try out Master Su's classes. I think you'll find some good kung fu. Let the question of 'internal vs. external' go for now. If you stick with it long enough, have an open mind yet aren't a sucker...you'll find out for yourself.

[TaichiMantis]

My personal view on Internal/External is that every style starts out being external and evolves to internal. External leads to Internal, no matter the style. That's my thinking.

I think you come closest to the heart of the matter. My sifu says much the same thing. The potential is there, however, many people, even black belts never truly "get" the internal side of things. Internal is the deeper understanding of movement and biomechanics, as "known" by your own mind/body connection. Some people can never make that connection, either through injury, stress, mental blocks etc....

Of course some styles have forms, excercises, whatever that help you make that mind/body connection more easily...Some people, no matter what the style are able to make that connection more intuitively.