what exactly is the difference btwn internal and external?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Experience is the key.. whether internal or external.. for either to be considered valid, they must have tested their training in situations that closely approximate real combat.. I am always amused whenever we have our local "push meets", a once a month meeting of people from any style/school for pushing, no judges or points, just the experience of testing it.. there are so many players that rely on "rules" to control the experience.. some complain that the action is too fast, or that someone moved their feet too much, or that someone is using too much force.. cripe, that's the purpose, to move toward a combat version of Taiji principles.. it a player finds something they have difficulties dealing with, it's better to find it in friendly play that in actual combat, now you have the opportunity to fix it..

It is extraordinarily difficult to transfer the slow rythmnic movements of Taiji to 70-80% combat speed.. it is equally difficult to deal with 70-80% of the opponent's expressed force compared to the usual 20-30% used in most training scenarios.. but, that is where Taiji SHOULD emerge as the desired discipline.. Taiji is based on the theories of Yin AND Yang.. hard AND soft.. balance.. Certainly, Taiji has a difference in its expression of hard Jing as compared to an external expression.. but it IS hard jing and if it's not trained to the point that it is internalized, it will not easily manifest when it's actually needed.. Listening, adhering, sticking, following is not an easy task at 80% combat action.. it requires much testing at that level..

One observable difference between internal and external is the level of control.. external, generally, has an approach of total domination and destruction.. the intention is clear and definable.. internal, generally, matches the opponent's speed/force and generates controlling techniques, adding just enough to control the situation.. relaxed and deceptive.. Cultivating a practical understanding of balance, alignment, force vectors, and "human nature" is a key component of internal dynamics.. training to the point that your movements are smooth, relaxed and natural conceals the application and the potential of those movements.. one of my mentors moves with such grace that i seldom sense the urgency needed to counter his applications, there is no apparent threat until it's too late..

Whole-body movements without extensions of arms or hardness in the hands is difficult to discern as threatening, and.. as my legs and waist support the relaxed upper body, the opponent feels no need to make quick defensive adjustments.. and, if i am sufficiently skilled, when the opponent realizes the threat, it is their reaction to it that completes the technique.. THEY give the application its power, i just set it up.. Where an external player seeks to destroy the opponents guard and defenses, an internal player knows that the same guard and defense gives the opponent a sense of security, we tend to leave it in place and use it to our advantage..

If you were to hold your body rigidly straight and fall forward, do you reach out an hit the floor to control the impact? No, you reach out and bring the floor to you in a controlled use of Peng.. this a basic difference of internal vs, external.. external hits, internal applies controlled force.. If you jump off a 5 ft. high wall do you stiffen the legs for impact, no.. you absorb the force in a controlled folding of the legs.. Peng.. Your hands are like the bumper of an auto, they manifest great power without moving out ahead of the auto.. they are powered by a good engine (energy) and its relationship through the wheels (feet) to the ground.. the steering wheel is like the waist, directing the hands.. and the driver is the mind that controls it all.. when you push an auto do you fix the legs and torso, pushing only with the arms and hands?.. no, it is an integrated whole body effort.. many of my classes spend some time pushing on a wall, if a line between the heels is parallel to the wall an "arm" push will move the pusher backward.. but, pushing with the legs and torso while keeping the arms in the same spatial relationship to the body will generate much force with little effort.. and, opposite reaction force is directed downward, further stabilizing the rooting.. this is a great exercise for self-evaluation...

Be well..

[Al S.]

Greetings -

My name is Al Simon. It's been about 4 years or so since I've posted on the Tai Chi board. Hello to any of you old-timers still around.

There are two other classical meanings of "internal/external" you may wish to consider. You'll find these in older writings by Chinese masters.

One meaning of "internal vs. external" was locality of origin. Among older Chinese masters, arts like Tai Chi were considered internal because they were developed or primarily influenced by ideas that originated in China. Kung Fu was considered external, because it was heavily influenced by Buddhism, whose teachings came from outside China.

For many of these older masters, that is all internal and external meant. Internal meant "within China", external meant "outside China". For example, Tai Chi Master Cheng Man Ching in his New Method of Tai Chi Self-Cultivation, explicitly says that's how to tell an internal from an external system.

Another classical meaning of internal/external you may find in older writings is in relation to the body trunk or torso. External systems are said to focus primarily on the use of the limbs (that is, the body parts that are "external" to the trunk), while internal systems focus on the trunk itself.

That meaning still carries through in part to today in distinguishing internal from external Qigong styles. Internal ("nei-dan") Qigong styles focus on the "chi storage areas" which are mostly in the torso, while external ("wai-dan") Qigong styles focus on the chi meridian system, which reaches out to the limbs.

Those are just two of the many meanings of external and internal I've encountered over the last 30 years of Qigong, Tai Chi, and martial arts.

Best wishes,
Al

[QuaiJohnCain]

Greetings -
There are two other classical meanings of "internal/external" you may wish to consider. You'll find these in older writings by Chinese masters.

The oldest known is 1893, when Dong Hai Chuan and Cheng Ting Hua coined the titles for MA.

One meaning of "internal vs. external" was locality of origin. Among older Chinese masters, arts like Tai Chi were considered internal because they were developed or primarily influenced by ideas that originated in China. Kung Fu was considered external, because it was heavily influenced by Buddhism, whose teachings came from outside China.

Han racism, nothing more. It was the Buddhists who brought Neigong and the idea of the Six Harmonies into China in the first place....

Like Egg Shen says in "Big Trouble in Little China"- China has Taoism, Buddhism, Shamanism, Magic, Folk Religion, etc, etc. They take what they want, and leave the rest out- like an American salad bar!

For many of these older masters, that is all internal and external meant. Internal meant "within China", external meant "outside China". For example, Tai Chi Master Cheng Man Ching in his New Method of Tai Chi Self-Cultivation, explicitly says that's how to tell an internal from an external system.

This would all be news to the practitioners of 300 or so distinctly Chinese styles that are generally referred to as External.....

Another classical meaning of internal/external you may find in older writings is in relation to the body trunk or torso. External systems are said to focus primarily on the use of the limbs (that is, the body parts that are "external" to the trunk), while internal systems focus on the trunk itself.

Yup, part of Six Harmonies theory.....

That meaning still carries through in part to today in distinguishing internal from external Qigong styles. Internal ("nei-dan") Qigong styles focus on the "chi storage areas" which are mostly in the torso, while external ("wai-dan") Qigong styles focus on the chi meridian system, which reaches out to the limbs.

This one, you nailed.

Internal = Six Harmonies and Neigong included and integrated into whatever.

[Al S.]

QJC -

Thanks for the feedback.

Dong and Cheng have the first documented "modern" usage of Neijia, used to point out the commonalities among Taiji, Bagua, and Xingyi.

But several hundred years before, the Epitaph for Wang Zhengnan from 1669 mentions internal vs. external. It uses the terms as I mentioned above, "internal" meant indigenous to China, "external" outside of China.

Whether you call it "racism" or (as one Chen style researcher puts it) "political defiance", the term was used historicially in this context. But the use of the term in that fashion isn't relegated just to history. As recently as 1993-1994, I heard the term defined that way at a workshop by a Master Liang Tung-tsai.

Thanks again,
Al

[Scott R. Brown]

The oldest known is 1893, when Dong Hai Chuan and Cheng Ting Hua coined the titles for MA.

It was the Buddhists who brought Neigong and the idea of the Six Harmonies into China in the first place....

This is most likely not true. They may or may not have popularized the concepts of “internal principles” in highly populated areas, such as Beijing where Dong taught, but neither of them coined the term, originated the principles, and mostly likely were NOT the first to apply the principles to MA.

Reportedly Dong, Hai Chuan learned “something” from a Taoist monk or Taoist monks. These principles and/or exercises by definition then were of Taoist origins. His Inner or Internal principles spring from Taoist teaching that go back millennia. As of the latest scholarship that I am presently aware of, the first mention of “Inner Practice” is found in the mid-fourth century B.C. work entitled Nei-yeh, (Inward Training). This work is considered the oldest presently known written record of Taoist teachings/principles antedating the first known copy of the Tao Te Ching by about 100-200 years. Its purpose is to address the principles and practices that allow one to accommodate themselves to Tao. The poetical structure of Nei-yeh indicates its origins come from an even earlier oral tradition. Within the Nei-yeh, Internal, refers to Mental practices and principles that bring one into accord with Tao.

Nearly universally, early tribal cultures practiced some form of shamanism. The basis and origins of shamanism may be found within human psychology. Shamanism involves the mental or introspective investigation into the landscapes of the mind; the workings and patterns of thought that occur within the human mind and learning how these principles may relate to, interact with, and affect the External world. So shamanism applies psychological (Internal) principles in order to affect the outer (External) world. Taoist Internal practices originated from shamanistic practices and have no origination in Buddhism. However, that is not to say that Buddhist Internal practices did not influence Taoist Internal practices later in history.

Introspection into the mind reveals that all External activities and phenomena originate from within the mind. Once we understand this we may choose to follow the principles of Tao and practice Internal/Mental exercises that allow for the efficient use of our bodies and environment. These principles and practices, when understood and applied effectively, allows one to perform External actions with a minimum of effort. Using a minimum of effort preserves energy. One of the principles of Tao is the conservation of energy. Energy is to be cultivated, stored and used in a manner that limits useless and inefficient expenditures. The Internal/Mental, principles of Tao are the Internal/Mental principles that are the foundation of Internal MA.

So Internal training is training that springs from an understanding that all External actions and phenomena originate within the mind. Internal training has as its basis, the principles of Tao, and the training of the mind first and the application of External, physical, techniques second. Mind BEFORE body. When we apply Internal principles to any External activity we are practicing an Internal Art as Chuang-tzu illustrates in his story of the butcher who artfully carves with a minimum of effort.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Scott- Just about everything you said matches up with the practices imported from India to China....

Taoism is not very unique when put next to Buddhism, nor is there a solid dividing line between them.... Chicken-Egg-dead-end as far as the purity arguement is concerned.

Seems here that there is one crowd that wants to make the definition of "Internal", arbitrary to thier wishes, and another group that seeks common ground and hard line parameters to define it.

That said, it's horn tootin' time, or so it seems....

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi QJC,

SOME of the principles of Ch’an and Taoism became infused with each other later in history NOT when the principles found in the Nei-yeh were written down. There are similarities AND differences between the Taoism and Buddhism. One method prescribed for attaining accord with Tao is very similar to the "mirror-washing" method of Southern Ch'an.

Buddhism entered China about 1 AD not 400 BC. The Nei-yeh is dated to about the middle of the 4th century B.C.. This date is a couple hundred years after the birth of Buddha; however it is considered part of a much older oral tradition. How far back the tradition goes is speculation at this time. It would not be a stretch to consider the principles addressed may go back 1,000 years or more. The principles are similar to those found in shamanistic practices which predate history. Shamanistic practices appear to be universal to tribal societies and involve introspection into the landscapes of the mind. This is where the concept of “Inner/Internal” originated. “Inside the mind”, as opposed to “Outside the body” is not that hard to understand and does not take much argument to demonstrate. There is no way to know how far back the principles discussed in the Nei-yeh go. It is currently spurious to assume that the principles originated in India. Just because India had some similar philosophical/spiritual concepts does not demonstrate dissemination FROM India only that the principles clearly represent a common human experience that may be apprehended by anyone who chooses to look for them.

While Ch’an thought clearly had an influence on Taoism and vise versa it would be incorrect to assume that this tradition comes from India or Buddhism. It comes down to the “dissemination from a single source” versus the “simultaneous, independent discovery” views. At any rate, these details are only important if one is interested in the history of a thought system, but not very important to those who are more interested in learning and applying the principles. Truth is Truth no matter what the source. Truth does not change, only the manner in which it is communicated changes. The deeper teachings of many religions are similar to each other once the cultural variances are taken into account. This is because they are founded upon the common experiences that represent the Truth according to personal and cultural differences.

It is not really important in the grand scheme of things how we define internal or external. There is no fixed definition to any word. Words do not define their meanings for us, we determine their meanings. Word meanings vary over time and usage. It is the current colloquial usage that determines a word’s meaning at the time of history it is used. When we use a word that may be interpreted in a number of ways it is important to define how we intend the word to be used within the context of our discussion. I am sure the terms Internal and External have meant different things to different MA throughout history. However, if we want to address what may be considered the ‘original” meaning of a word according to a specific context then it behooves us to go to the oldest source possible. According to the context of the original question of this thread, the Nei-yeh fulfills this requirement. “Internal” is used in the title of the work and is clearly defined within the context of the work. “Internal” means an inward mental focus; the mind is cultivated in order to affect “External” experience! Since Tai Chi Chuan and Ba Gua are based upon principles of Tao and since they concentrate on mental cultivation in order to affect their external application of technique it is clear that “Internal” refers to this long standing and well defined principle. This is NOT an arbitrary determination; it is based upon well documented principles, meanings and application of the term “Internal” throughout Chinese history.

[Fu-Pow]

Hi QJC,

! Since Tai Chi Chuan and Ba Gua are based upon principles of Tao and since they concentrate on mental cultivation in order to affect their external application of technique it is clear that “Internal” refers to this long standing and well defined principle. This is NOT an arbitrary determination; it is based upon well documented principles, meanings and application of the term “Internal” throughout Chinese history.

If it was that simple we'd all be grand puba grandmasters.

[ftgjr]

This seems to be a topic that can be debated forever.

I have studied what most people explain as internal and external styles.

My best explaination of what I think they mean is that arts like Tai Chi and Xingyi utilize what natural abilities you have. In other words, you don't need to increase your strength, speed or stamina in order to be an effective practitioner. Everything is allready inside you. Internal

Martial arts that require you to built up stamina, speed and strength with running and weight training in order to gain a competitive edge (though some skill and principles do apply). External.

One comparison is my marketing for my business.

The marketing that I do to customers I allready have, I call internal marketing. I allready have them as customer, but can improve my business by keeping in touch with what I allready have.

The marketing I do to attain new customers can also increase my business, but sometimes takes more money and effort. Reaching out for customers I don't have is what I call external marketing.

This is the only way I can explain what I think it is.

[Scott R. Brown]

If it was that simple we'd all be grand puba grandmasters.

Hi Fu-Pow,

I agree it is not necessarily simple to accomplish. Not much worth having in life is easy! I am not sure what in the quote of mine you provided implies I consider it simple!

An earlier comment of mine stated it is simple to understand the reasoning I provided that "Internal" means mental training as opposed to "External" meaning physical training. Perhaps this is what you were addressing?

[QuaiJohnCain]

An earlier comment of mine stated it is simple to understand the reasoning I provided that "Internal" means mental training as opposed to "External" meaning physical training.

I will remind you of something you're overlooking by asking this question: What moves the body?

Six Harmonies.

[SPJ]

there are 2 schools of thoughts:

1. political conspiracy: Qing wanted to divide CMA community, internal is acceptable, external meaning shaolin is banned due to association with restoring Ming and anti Qing.

2. the idea of internal vs external is already in traditional chinese medicine. accupuncture is to help the external, and herbs help internal etc, surgery is external and the rest is internal medicine.

breathing exercise or Qi Gong is internal, Bodhidarma passed 2 types of exercise, one is tendon exchange and the other is bone marrow washing. they are exercises to help the monks to strengthen themself from internally changing tendon and washing the bone marrow, to help the external which are muscles and bones, etc.

--

internal and external are inseparable.

--

[Scott R. Brown]

I will remind you of something you're overlooking by asking this question: What moves the body?

Six Harmonies.

Hi QJC,

All things originate from Mind. Without Mind we have nothing else. Mind is the essence, core, or root of all things. While the six harmonies include it in a list, it is a separate, or perhaps all encompassing, principle from which the other harmonies spring. Without Mind the other harmonies are meaningless!

[mantis108]

Hi QJC,

All things originate from Mind. Without Mind we have nothing else. Mind is the essence, core, or root of all things. While the six harmonies include it in a list, it is a separate, or perhaps all encompassing, principle from which the other harmonies spring. Without Mind the other harmonies are meaningless!

Six Harmonies in effect is a group of qualitive functional relationships which as you pointed out is "supported" or encompassed by the mind (heart). In general, people would describe it as a chain expression:

Xin (heart/mind) <=> Yi (intention) + Yi (intention) <=> Qi (intrinsic energy) + Qi (intrinsic energy) <=> Li (strength/power)

There are 4 elements to this 3 links chain or spectrum (3 internal harmonies) which are Xin, Yi, Qi, and Li. This IMHO is related to the Ch'an lesson of the moving flag. Is the flag that moves, or is it the wind moves. The answer is most likely that it's the mind that moves. BTW, the entire 6 harmonies spectrum has a total of 10 elements (4 energy related and 6 matter related). Just a thought

Warm regards

Mantis108

[imperialtaichi]

Xin (heart/mind) <=> Yi (intention)

Just to stir things up a bit

How do you make sure the Yi is coming from the heart (Xin) and not the head?

Cheers,
John