what exactly is the difference btwn internal and external?

[Aeturnal]

im trying to understand exactly what the difference is btwn an internal and external style in CMA's. I did start this off in another forum about asking whether mantis was internal or external or both. im just having trouble grasping the concept how learning taijijuan as a fighting style would be different then something like wing chun, mantis, choy li fut etc. any answers are appreciated

[Michael Dasargo]

Aeturnal

Internal is commonly associated with soft, passive-aggressive movements.

External is commonly associated with brute, assertive-aggressive type movements.

However, an External emphasis also refers to how something looks, while an Internal emphasis also refers to how something feels and functions.

What your thinking of as Nei Jia (Tai Chi, Xingyi, Bagua etc) are systems that are predominately composed of passive-aggressive principles giving a soft and slow look to the practice (generally speaking). This appearance is due to the fine tuning of body mechanics, angle stepping, etc.

However, the person playing it may only understand the look of the movements (an external expression), rather than the feel and function (an internal expression).

Likewise, a Muay Thai fighter may emphasize a passive-aggressive defense and focus on spiraling the spine to produce power, thus making such an expression of Muay Thai " soft" and "internal" in principle.

Internal and External is a matter of principle emphasis, and is not exclusive to individual systems.

Tai Chi, Xingyi, and Bagua fighters that I know do heavy bag and focus mitt work, while karate guys I know practice slow to refine the kinetics of individual techniques.

Mantis is balanced. The internal and external emphasis is matter of how you wish to train.

Hope it helps,
M.Dasargo

[Aeturnal]

hey that actually does help a bit, thank you

[scholar]

I agree with the above that all martial arts have internal and external aspects, just different emphases on their order of training. We all have opinions, though, and you are going to get as many different answers as there are schools on this one.

Your best bet is to find a teacher who can clearly, physically, demonstrate the difference. If the teacher can't consistently demonstrate an obvious difference, then they can't teach neijia and is likely to be representing a kung fu cult. So, words aren't enough to convey this, you have to be able to see and feel the actual quantitative difference between neijia and waijia.

[qiphlow]

only that one starts with "in" and the other starts with "ex". they're both "ternal"

[mixjourneyman]

internal: has internal force.

How to get internal force?: focus on small movements and body mechanics.

Some people get good and call it jing, qi, shen.
Other people call it precise control over ones body.

Both are equally internal.

I will also agree that a lot of so called external arts have internal mechanics in them.

Internal martial arts require a lot of inner work on both the body and the mind.

Hope that clarifies a bit and adds another dimension to the conversation.

[Fu-Pow]

"Internal" means moving more like an amoeba than a whip. That is, everything moves together like a big sack of water, rather than in separate parts.

The opposite of internal is not external, it is "sectional." Internal is all about timing. All parts move separately, but the timing is such that they all move and work together. In external, you have some parts moving separately, but often some parts are "fused" and not articulated. Also, the timing can be off, so that you create opposing forces in the body.

Internal is very easy to understand in principle, very difficult to execute in practice.

[Buho_Nival]

All the other responses take the traditional path of answering this question...I have heard another explanation though...

Because of the influence of Ta Mo (Bodhidharma) with the Shaolin monks and the development of thier CMA, those systems are said to be external....because they were originated outside of China..externally...and are based on Budda...

The internal systems, however, were developed inside of China...by Chinese families....so they orginated inside of China....internally....and are Tao based....

not my theory...just passing it on.....

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The Goal: to acquire the most effective self-defense system..
The paths in question: internal or external..
The evidence: The highest demonstrations of each path..
The variables: Time, amount of time necessary to cultivate skills representative of high levels of either path.. The cost, in money, in harm received during training, in requirements of the teacher(s) that a student adopt their beliefs, the student's agendas.. available resources/teachers..

Both paths have remarkable demonstrations of high-level skills.. there are frauds in both paths, cults.. Typically, the external path is substantially shorter in gaining effective skills, not always, though.. Typically, the internal path is more well-rounded, with medicine, healing and character development, not always, though..

The first step: Sincere evaluation of the student's goals, sincere research and awareness of hype..

Some of my experiences: that external focuses on alignment and muscular control/development.. Internal focuses of cultivation and refinement of the energies that power the muscles and senses.. both focus of technique, both retain techniques that are not particularly useful in today's reality.. There some styles that try, with some success, to balance internal/external..

I think balance is the key..

Be well...

[CFT]

The opposite of internal is not external, it is "sectional." Internal is all about timing. All parts move separately, but the timing is such that they all move and work together. In external, you have some parts moving separately, but often some parts are "fused" and not articulated. Also, the timing can be off, so that you create opposing forces in the body.

I've only got a fraction of your training time so I am sticking my neck out to disagree with these particular comments. If "externalist" did not move with coordinated whole-body movements then they would have very little power in their strikes.

[Fu-Pow]

I've only got a fraction of your training time so I am sticking my neck out to disagree with these particular comments. If "externalist" did not move with coordinated whole-body movements then they would have very little power in their strikes.

Its not that "externalists" don't use "whole body power" its how the body is utilized. In internal arts there is more articulation of joints, muscles and tendons and once you have that articulation, there are more parts of the body that are moving as separate parts. The next step is to "time" these parts so that they are moving in concert and in the right spatial relationship to each other.

In reality, all of these aspects are trained at the same time: articulation, timing and spatial relationship. That is why internal arts are practiced slowly at first because there is so much to focus on and if you were doing it quickly you would miss alot of the subtleties.

As an aside, I don't understand people that say "there is no division between internal and external." This simply isn't true. Internal is more complex, its harder to learn but I think the rewards are greater. I practiced external martial arts for 10+ years (Choy Lay Fut) and I've practiced internal (Hun Yuan Taiji) for almost as long. I can tell you that practicing external martial arts will in some ways impede your ability in internal martial arts because while you might think you are "whole body" there are many layers to "whole body" and external only scratches the surface.

[SPJ]

this is a very big topic.

internal and external training or practice methods may not go one without the other.

yes there are differences.

first there is the forms/xing structure practice.

2nd there is the conducting/transferring Jing/power practice.

finally there is the releasing or power issueing practice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6zKXUChm-E

[mawali]

There is no difference. Internal and external refers to levels of training meaning when you first start out with no reference point you build the posture characteristics, the balance, the bag work, 2 man drill and the basics. These are external. It may extend to punching and kicking but as you train harder, these tasks become part of you.
Over time, you go beyond the response of attack but you redirect, avoid, parry and these become the attack. You are more fluid, more direct and you mations become barely visible. You will be able to tell the skill of someone just by assessing them and that is the basis of the internal!

[QuaiJohnCain]

Fu Pow nailed it beautifully with laymans language- hard to do.

Over time, you go beyond the response of attack but you redirect, avoid, parry and these become the attack. You are more fluid, more direct and you mations become barely visible. You will be able to tell the skill of someone just by assessing them and that is the basis of the internal!

That could explain a good, fast Western Boxer. Still not Internal. For that, you need the Six Harmonies and Neigong. VERY FEW systems include both in thier entirety, and more importantly, thier context to fighting. The styles that do, are usually labeled "Neijia".

Redundant, I know, but there are many pretenders to the throne that would have people thinking erroneously. Six Harmonies, Neigong, period. To my knowledge, the list of styles that include these is short, but would include:

Xingyi/Xin Yi
Bagua
Taiji
Liu He Ba Fa
Yiquan
and SOME lines of Mantis, TongBei, Baji, and White Crane, and certain "closed-door" animal styles that we'll probably never see in the west.

Do your homework on Neigong and the Six Harmonies to see the difference. Now, I should make it clear that these two components certainly DO NOT make a style better, though some proponents and pretenders might say otherwise. A good fighter is good because he/she found what works for them.

[Fu-Pow]

Well put.

FP