The time honored tradition of cross training.

[The Xia]

Based on talk from other threads I got the idea to start a new topic. I don't really get why some people think it's taboo for a traditionalist to cross train. Styles are created from other styles so what does that say? It says that the creator of that style practiced those other arts in order to put them into a new art. Also, many masters past and present practice multiple styles. These are facts. Cross training is a tradition in CMA and martial arts all over. So I say that cross training is a traditional martial arts practice. I want to know where this notion that cross training is some forbidden fruit that true traditionalists should avoid came from. Also, who came up with the belief that Bruce Lee and/or modern MMA invented cross training?

[SevenStar]

nobody said bruce lee invented cross training. the samurai were cross trained, technically. These days, when people mention cross training, it's the thought of training striking and grappling. In tma, you don't really see that due to the lack of grappling in cma in general (I'm not talking about chin na and shuai chiao, but ground grappling). you saw people training clf and lama pai, longfist and taiji, etc. multiple standup styles, which yes, is cross training. But, as stated that's not the general line thought of today when cross training is mentioned. boxing and wrestling is thought of as cross training. mantis and judo is thought of as cross training. karate and wing chun is not.

that said, CMA made it taboo on their own, I'm guessing. ever since the advent of the ufc, I've heard several tma say "we don't need to learn grappling," followed by some reason or excuse, ranging from they have grappling in their system to they won't be taken down.

[Black Jack II]

The Samurai really got into the crosstraining act after the battle of nagashino in 1575. They picked up the king of personal defense, firearms training after they were defeated by peasants with guns.

Crosstraining is so nothing new.

[The Xia]

nobody said bruce lee invented cross training.

I have heard some people say this many times.

the samurai were cross trained, technically. These days, when people mention cross training, it's the thought of training striking and grappling. In tma, you don't really see that due to the lack of grappling in cma in general (I'm not talking about chin na and shuai chiao, but ground grappling). you saw people training clf and lama pai, longfist and taiji, etc. multiple standup styles, which yes, is cross training. But, as stated that's not the general line thought of today when cross training is mentioned. boxing and wrestling is thought of as cross training. mantis and judo is thought of as cross training. karate and wing chun is not.

that said, CMA made it taboo on their own, I'm guessing. ever since the advent of the ufc, I've heard several tma say "we don't need to learn grappling," followed by some reason or excuse, ranging from they have grappling in their system to they won't be taken down.

Actually, there is ground grappling in Shuai Jiao. But this is all beside the point. I see no reason why cross training in styles that have similarities is wrong. In fact, I think it can help martial development. I also feel that cross training in styles with far different concepts and focus is good for the martial artist. It's all about doing what is right for you. This is what martial artists have been doing for years. I know what you mean on the excuses. But I think this has more to do with what I was talking about on that thread in the self defense forum. Modern so-called traditionalists vs. what is really traditional. However, one thing you mentioned I would say has some truth to it. There is grappling in CMA. The thing is that all too many people don't understand their own arts. This doesn't mean you should stay away from styles that have more of a grappling focus though.

[SevenStar]

I have heard some people say this many times.

there are idiots born daily...

But this is all beside the point. I see no reason why cross training in styles that have similarities is wrong.

who said it was wrong?

However, one thing you mentioned I would say has some truth to it. There is grappling in CMA. The thing is that all too many people don't understand their own arts. This doesn't mean you should stay away from styles that have more of a grappling focus though.

I trhink the main issue there is re-invention of the wheel. "it's in the forms", "you have to know your style well enough," etc. are fine, but with a grappling style all of that is more straightforward. It's right in your face. No hidden techniques, no combing thrugh forms.

[bodhitree]

What about non martial cross training. Tennis or basketball can help with wind and footwork. Hockey (need I say more, talk about randori), Football makes you tough, golf well, makes you, how you say, a, pansy? Kidding.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

People have been cross training TCMA forever. Find any teacher above 50-60 from China, and you'll see he did a dozen styles. The taboo of cross training is a recent tradition inherent to the small minds of weak skilled teachers who feared their students learning from someone who was 'better' than they were. They worried about losing their students and their income, so they tried to make people loyal to one style.

How absurd.

[SevenStar]

agreed....

[xcakid]

I totally believe in cross training. I practice Kung Fu and GUN fu. Cause a good martial arts always carries a gun.

[SPJ]

crossing training is not a taboo at all.

even in early 20th century, as guns and canon introduced into the Qing's new army led by Yuan Shi Kai, more and more of TCMA people were out of jobs--

if your teacher talked to the other teacher and agreed, then the student may go and learn a different style from a different teacher.

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[EarthDragon]

Our system of 8 step praying mantis is comprised of 18 styles. One of these styles teaches ground fighting for all those MMA that insist that kung fu has no ground fighting. Can you say cross train?????????

[SevenStar]

FWIW, several styles have some form of ground striking or "grappling" be it in forms or elsewhere. The issue is how much you train it. judo has strikes, but how many judoka are known for striking? How many 8 step guys are known for having awesome ground grappling skill?

[EarthDragon]

seven star, Not sure how to answer your question... but I will try
so honestly how many 8 step guys do you know? how many have you touched hands with or rolled around with?do you have any experience with 8 step? my point. follows

We have 360 ground fighting techniques, these are to be used from a fallen position. again real life of a fight is probable that it will go to the ground so every TCMA has this. in the year 2007 or in the year 1587 a fight is a fight. every martial art has to have certain apsects to stand the test of time if they dont and are insufficant they would have died many years ago.
I trained and sparred with a fighter in 2 seperate UFC's that used our ground fighting skills and he won both of his bouts.
So I would have to say that it depends on what you are training for... my point is you can focus on 1 certain aspect of your given style. i.e stand up fighting, ground fighting, etc etc or you can focus on healing, herbs, internal, meditation etc etc but that doesnt mean that for instance xing yi doesnt have other parts to make it a whole.

I share a school with a nihon goshin aikido instructor.. does aikido have a ton of kicks and strikes?????? most would say no this shows the lack of understanding and typical stereotyping that is prevelant in the martial arts today..

[David Jamieson]

I've learned Karate, Kickboxing, Boxing, Fencing, Kungfu, Wrestling and a dib of this and a dab of that.

Mixed all together and with continued practice, they are what I use to not only exercise, but to spar and if need be, that's what I would fight with too...unless I had a gun, in which case I would end any alteraction or kerfuffle more quickly.

[SevenStar]

seven star, Not sure how to answer your question... but I will try
so honestly how many 8 step guys do you know? how many have you touched hands with or rolled around with?do you have any experience with 8 step? my point. follows

We have 360 ground fighting techniques, these are to be used from a fallen position. again real life of a fight is probable that it will go to the ground so every TCMA has this. in the year 2007 or in the year 1587 a fight is a fight. every martial art has to have certain apsects to stand the test of time if they dont and are insufficant they would have died many years ago.
I trained and sparred with a fighter in 2 seperate UFC's that used our ground fighting skills and he won both of his bouts.
So I would have to say that it depends on what you are training for... my point is you can focus on 1 certain aspect of your given style. i.e stand up fighting, ground fighting, etc etc or you can focus on healing, herbs, internal, meditation etc etc but that doesnt mean that for instance xing yi doesnt have other parts to make it a whole.

I share a school with a nihon goshin aikido instructor.. does aikido have a ton of kicks and strikes?????? most would say no this shows the lack of understanding and typical stereotyping that is prevelant in the martial arts today..

joel sutton. two things there. first, those matches were in 1995. not to take anything away from joel,but ANY ground experience back then woulda put him light years ahead of the game. also,both of those matches ended due to strikes. none of that says anything at all about 8step grappling. since then, he has lost 4 fights,but I don't remember how many were tap outs respect goes to him for competing, but my question was how many mantis guys are known for ground grappling skill?

aikido does have strikes, but that isn't its strong point. I wouldn't go into aikido expecting to become a great striker, nor would I train muay thai to become a good grappler.