about Bruce Lee

[lkfmdc]

By all accounts, Lee was amazingly fast. Was he a great fighter? He probably was better than a lot of martial artists of his time, but more than likely, not as good as athletes like boxers and wrestlers (Judoka/wrestler Gene Lebell easily handled him when they mixed it up) who were regularly going full force and competing against other equally skilled and conditioned opponents.

Lots of karate guys were impressed with him, but you have to remember, they were all doing point fighting at that time and this was probably the first time they were exposed first-hand to someone whose idea of training was to work in a more "live" type of context and actually do some hard sparring.

Additionally, lots of people who trained with Lee "played his game". That is, a lot of his teaching involved working in Wing Chun's chi sao drills. Lee was a master at these types of drills and could easily outclass and awe his training partners, although it really wasn't any type of measure of real fighting ability. Much of what Lee was able to do to impress people didn't have a whole lot to do with fighting another skilled fighter.

And keep in mind, KF knows many people who trained with LEE or descend from Lee's teachings...

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yeah...so do I.

In addition to Dan Inosanto - who spent a week with us at Moy Yat's school in September, 1979...I also had the opportunity to get to know Ted Wong back in 1990 when he was one the guest's of honor for the weekend seminar/50 th birthday party celebration of Grandmaster William Cheung (my wing chun sifu from 8/83 to the present)...in Boulder, Colorado.

In fact, Ted Wong sat next to William Cheung during my grading for the Gold Sash in William Cheung's Traditional Wing Chun system...TWC... (the highest rank William was giving out in those days)...although he's since expanded the grading structure to include other things such as weapons, etc....beyond the test for Gold Sash.

And my test included bare knuckled full contact sparring with sneakers on that included headshots, kicks to the groin, etc. (with no protective equipment except a mouthpiece and a groin cup).

So it's not like only certain people around here have a monopoly on knowing what serious sparring/fighting is all about.

Ted Wong and William Cheung were in the midst of collaborating on a book at that time that compared JKD to TWC....and Ted put in an amazing JKD demo that Saturday night....The guy was already 53 years old and still super fast/conditioned.

And both had plenty of hard sparring - and in the case of Willam, at least, real fighting experience in their day. (Perhaps Ted too, I don't really know enough about that to say one way or another.)

But I do know that he was very good - and not afraid of real fighting, for sure.

In fact - do you recall the...I think it was an Inside Kung Fu executive....who was stabbed to death back in those days? (I don't remember his name at the moment).

Well he had just had lunch with William Cheung and Ted Wong at some restaurant...he said good-bye...walked around the corner...and was attacked by his assailant...William and Ted heard the screams....came running....and Ted chased the assailant while William attended to the victim...

Ted caught up to him and actually tried to subdue the guy (unsuccessfully)...who got away. (Ted was not hurt).

And I've personally seen the knife wound that William Cheung still carries to this day on his back (a fight back in 1959)...

So we're not talking about some guys who've never done anything other than some friendly amateur sparring against untrained/unskilled opponents here.

These guys are the real deal.

And the same applies to Bruce Lee.

[Knifefighter]

In addition to Dan Inosanto - who spent a week with us at Moy Yat's school in September, 1979...I also had the opportunity to get to know Ted Wong back in 1990 when he was one the guest's of honor for the weekend seminar/50 th birthday party celebration of Grandmaster William Cheung (my wing chun sifu from 8/83 to the present)...in Boulder, Colorado.

So it's not like only certain people around here have a monopoly on knowing what serious sparring/fighting is all about.

You were with them for how long? A total of 9 days between the two of them? How would a total of 9 days give you insight into how they and Lee trained and sparred in his system?

These guys are the real deal.
And the same applies to Bruce Lee.

Depends on what you mean by the real deal. Was there some hard sparring? Yeah, occasionally. But not much in comparison to what boxers, Muay Thai fighters, wrestlers and judokas were doing back then... and definitely not much compared to what today's competitive MMA fighters currently do.

[Shaolin Wookie]

viii) Nobody's mom is allowed in.

ix) Please note that the judicial system does not recognize Trial by Combat anymore. …Frickin' lawyers gone and spoiled everything.

x) Challenges involving tai chi practitioners will take place at full speed.

xi) All participants are to govern their actions with strict attention to courtesy and decorum as… Cough, cough… Okay, I know I'm not fooling anybody with this one.

xii) If the "Delayed Death Touch" is used, the impending time of death must be announced in advance - much like calling your shot in pool. Both participants must then sit in chairs until the appointed time. A death occurring within 10 minutes of the agreed-upon time will constitute a victory.

[iron tiger]

His muscles were not cosmetic. (He was soooo toned...)

Sounds like a serious man-crush to me.

By all accounts, Lee was amazingly fast. Was he a great fighter? He probably was better than a lot of martial artists of his time, but more than likely, not as good as athletes like boxers and wrestlers (Judoka/wrestler Gene Lebell easily handled him when they mixed it up) who were regularly going full force and competing against other equally skilled and conditioned opponents.

Lots of karate guys [and movie-star students of his--i.t.] were impressed with him, but you have to remember, they were all doing point fighting at that time and this was probably the first time they were exposed first-hand to someone whose idea of training was to work in a more "live" type of context and actually do some hard sparring.

Additionally, lots of people who trained with Lee "played his game". That is, a lot of his teaching involved working in Wing Chun's chi sao drills. Lee was a master at these types of drills and could easily outclass and awe his training partners, although it really wasn't any type of measure of real fighting ability. Much of what Lee was able to do to impress people didn't have a whole lot to do with fighting another skilled fighter.

Imo, KF's post is one of the best I've yet read on this forum.

And btw, there were also several highly accomplished karate guys who weren't so impressed with Lee once they got a first-hand look. Lewis & Norris being two, Norris being the more diplomatic about it.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Sounds like a serious man-crush to me. .

Hmmm.....more like respect for peak conditioning.....it's not easy...

Imo, KF's post is one of the best I've yet read on this forum.

And btw, there were also several highly accomplished karate guys who weren't so impressed with Lee once they got a first-hand look. Lewis & Norris being two, Norris being the more diplomatic about it.

I can't believe I'm saying this....but I agree with that statement.

[Anthony]

"If he was the real deal then name one public fight he won, one tournament he won, one tournament he entered as a competitor and not as an exhibitor."

I have to agree with that. American fighters who actually proove themselves are never given the credit of Asian "masters" who havent. But somehow the latter are always the "real deal." What a joke.

Think about this thread for a minute. You have people arguing that a man was a good fighter. This man has no recorded fights. What's there to argue? Duh.

If youre so inclined, you can give B.Lee all the credit you want. I'll give the credit and my respect to people like Joe Lewis and Chuck Norris. Too bad if you don't like it.

[msg]

this can go on forever people are going to think what they want for some reason they have something against cma and the real teachers they rather go along with the stupid and closed minded westeners they have the bigest egos thats why the always have to try and prove themselvs key word try

[Ultimatewingchun]

Everything is time relative...The bottom line is....major parts of the martial arts world at that time were thoroughly impressed with Lee's abilities...Ed Parker, Jhoon Rhee, Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris, Mike Stone, Bolo (forgot his real name), Bob Wall, etc. (And if Lewis and Norris have changed their stories now - that's their problem).

And here's some of what Gene Lebell had to say about Bruce Lee in his recent book, "TOUGHEST MAN ALIVE":

"I taught Bruce Lee judo and finishing holds and he taught me his way of doing kung fu and I still use some of his moves today in the movies today as a stuntman" (p.228)

"One time Bruce and I were training, Bruce kicked me really hard. I remember thinking that it was a good thing that he only wore a size 6 shoe instead of a 14 like me, otherwise that kick would have sent me over the Great Wall of China. He was not only strong for his size but nobody was faster. I loved that man...."

"He had two students that I remain good friends with to this day...Danny Inosanto, who is every bit as good as Bruce was if not better, and Richard Bustillo. Richard has carried on Bruce's philosophy of cross training and peak physical condition in order to become the best fighter that you can. Gokor Chivichyan and I still give grappling seminars at Richard Bustillo's dojo every year. " (P.168)

.................

So what that he wasn't doing that much grappling in those days?! Who really was?

Is there any doubt in your mind about what he'd be doing if he were 25 years old today? Or how good he'd be? Given his skill level, natural attributes, and his penchant for cross training, heavy conditioning, and hard realistic sparring?

The guy was great for his time. And if this was his time he'd be great today.

[Knifefighter]

And here's some of what Gene Lebell had to say about Bruce Lee in his recent book, "TOUGHEST MAN ALIVE":

"Toughest Man Alive" as in Lebell, not Lee.

"I taught Bruce Lee judo and finishing holds and he taught me his way of doing kung fu and I still use some of his moves today in the movies today as a stuntman" (p.228)

He was not only strong for his size but nobody was faster."

So what that he wasn't doing that much grappling in those days?! Who really was?

All the Judokas, wrestlers, Sambo and BJJ practitioners

The guy was great for his time.

I don't think one can say he was great compared to the elite level athletes such boxers, Muay Thai fighters, wrestlers, and Judo players of that time.

And if this was his time he'd be great today.

Maybe... but he'd probably need to concentrate more on real fighting and less on movies.

[Ultimatewingchun]

More fighting - less movies...SURE.

OKAY...I buy that.

But Bruce Lee was THE FIRST ONE in the modern era to place heavy emphasis on CROSSTRAINING.

And within all the striking/kicking oriental martial arts traditions (Thai boxing the sole exception since it was the national sport of Thailand)...

he was the first one in the modern era to emphasize all-out full contact sparring with protective gear, full power headshots, etc.

And when guys twice his size like Joe Lewis walk away and compliment him, his style of fighting (ie.- 5 angles of atttack), his speed, etc...and when guys like Lebell take positive note of his kicking skill, emphasis on conditioning, cardio, etc...

and both guys just mentioned did compete in world class fighting events and won...

then you have to put two and two together...

and it all adds up to: EXCELLENT FIGHTER.

[PangQuan]

i cant even finish reading this thread.

just being curious i thought i would see what this thread is about.

here is what ive noticed this thread is about...


a lot of people speaking based on what they want to say...not on facts.

because no one really has much fact.

here are the facts anyone needs to know.

1. bruce lee was real, alive and a martial artist

2. bruce lee was not a professional fighter.

3. bruce lee had great attributes to be a fighter, and put in enough time and thought, so that had he wanted to make the leap, he could have.

4. bruce lee decided not to fight, like many martial artists do.

5. bruce lee was an actor, martial artists and philosopher, who has done more in his life than anyone else here.

6. people like to speak through jealousy or ignorance.

7. leave the mans past in the past. live your own life, and dont worry about how good bruce lee was. hes dead.


shut up, go home, and train.

talking sh!t about a dead guy will not improve YOUR skills.

[Black Jack II]

But Bruce Lee was THE FIRST ONE in the modern era to place heavy emphasis on CROSSTRAINING.

You hear this one a lot but it only seems true because of his popularity of that era. He did bring crosstraining vastly more into the main public eye but he was not the first one to pickup the concept.

There were other folks who had a emphasis on crosstraining during that time period and even way before. Prof Vistiacion, Moses Powell, Dr.Gyi, Charles Nelson, Bernard J. Cosneck, Adriano Emperado's group, actually there seem to be a number really.

[iron tiger]

Sounds like a serious man-crush to me

Hmmm.....more like respect for peak conditioning.....it's not easy...

'Twas but a joke. Pretty common tease other sports boards.

[lkfmdc]

I laugh out loud everytime I hear the claim that Bruce Lee invented cross training

At the turn of the century (uh, 19th to 20th), those guys doing boxing and catch wrestling weren't cross training?

Savate wasn't cross training when they combined southern FRENCH kicks with northern FRENCH slaps and English boxing?

The Sambo guys in the early part of the 20th century weren't cross training when they combined native forms of wrestling with Japanese judo, western boxing and Chinese striking?

Hapkido, which was established in Korea in the 1940's isn't cross training when it took Korean and Japanese martial arts and combined them?

The Tang Shou Dao guys in Taiwan weren't cross training when they combined Hsing Yi and Judo?

Kempo, Kajukenbo, Arnis, all before Lee