Links to the Shamrock Vs. Gracie fight last night??

[Knifefighter]

Ah, but we do not just train in things like this. This is more situational self-defense based application. We also spar at a high and painful level of contact regularily taking shots all over the place (punches, kicks, throws, trips, etc) all on a cement floor, which is very painful when we incorporate takedowns.
There is no resistance if I do what I do properly...that said, I agree that one needs to know how to take a hit and should train at a high level of intensity and contact on a regular basis.

If you are throwing onto hard floors, you won't really learn how to throw and land very well because you are always having to worry about injuries from landing on a hard surface... same if you are sparring without protective gear.

That is the fatal flaw of the "lethal" techniques approach.

[wind draft]

good job winterpalm

[Knifefighter]

good job winterpalm

Yeah, good job in pretend training.

[WinterPalm]

Yeah, good job in pretend training.

LOL!

So let me get this straight. The guy that takes bareknuckle hits if he fails to block them, the guy that lands on a hard surface if he gets taken down or thrown, who regularily takes hard shin kicks with no padding, has had numerous dents in his shins, has been unable to move various things because they've been otherwise hit, slammed, jarred, or jammed is the one doing pretend training?

If you are throwing onto hard floors, you won't really learn how to throw and land very well because you are always having to worry about injuries from landing on a hard surface... same if you are sparring without protective gear.

That is the fatal flaw of the "lethal" techniques approach.

Sorry but when I get into a fight in the street there is a hard surface. If you train properly, and evidently you don't, you learn how to minimalize the impact of hitting the ground. I don't need soft pads to learn how to throw or be thrown.

How the hell am I the one not training in reality? No pads, no mouthguard, no fancy soft mats...that sounds like reality to me.

[WinterPalm]

I think there is a major difference for people that are training for reality and people that are training for a matted training surface. Going to the ground is a serious thing for me because one, it hurts, and two there may be other people around to stomp my head in. If you fight on the ground you should be aware of these and understand that landing on your knees on cement is awful. This teaches you to perform ground related techniques in such a manner that you do not injure yourself too bad.

I train with the utmost urgency to deal with what an assailant is going to try and do to me because it will occur with no protection, just my flesh and whatever they bring. Fortunately my Sifu has me training in methods that minimalize the potential for injury when dealing with things such as no protective equipment and no soft surfaces to land on. We do, however, often spar with gloves to mix it up in a different way.

Hardcore kung fu is not for everybody but to me it is addressing the most crucial elements of combat without sugarcoating or otherwise dandifying the brutality and stark reality of fighting.

[Knifefighter]

I think there is a major difference for people that are training for reality and people that are training for a matted training surface. Going to the ground is a serious thing for me because one, it hurts, and two there may be other people around to stomp my head in. If you fight on the ground you should be aware of these and understand that landing on your knees on cement is awful. This teaches you to perform ground related techniques in such a manner that you do not injure yourself too bad.

I train with the utmost urgency to deal with what an assailant is going to try and do to me because it will occur with no protection, just my flesh and whatever they bring. Fortunately my Sifu has me training in methods that minimalize the potential for injury when dealing with things such as no protective equipment and no soft surfaces to land on. We do, however, often spar with gloves to mix it up in a different way.

Hardcore kung fu is not for everybody but to me it is addressing the most crucial elements of combat without sugarcoating or otherwise dandifying the brutality and stark reality of fighting.

Without mats, you can never learn how to fight on the ground because you can't spend enough time there to get good. Same with throwing and takedowns.

By hitting with no protection, you can never learn to hit with full force.

This type of "hardcore" kung fu is anything but, and is exactly the reason that these type of practitioners get smoked just about every time they fight the "sport" oriented fighters.

Judo proved this years ago when Kano's fighters openly accepted challenges from Jujutsu stylists. Being able to practice "safe" techniques at 100% is much more effective than practicing deadly techniques without being able to spar at 100% because you are training on surfaces that are "awful" to land on and are throwing strikes to lethal areas that are too dangerous to hit at 100%. BJJ has demonstated this again and again over the last 70 years and it was shown once again the early UFC's.

[WinterPalm]

Although I would agree that it is good to train with mats, which we have done and will do in the future. There is still something to be said about training on real surfaces and learning how to land properly...which you apparently don't know how to do.
The way we train is a mix of reality based training and skill/attribute training. The latter is where we spar with padding, do throws onto mats, etc. The former is where we incorporate situational drills, potential lethal attacks, and other studies of anatomy that lend themselves to seriously hurting someone if you have to. It is worthwhile to train full resistance in drills that are not just sparring but also sneak attacks, grabs, etc.

In terms of Royce Gracie in the early UFC's...I do respect his family's art but there was obviously a very clear element of surprise in that not really anybody had seen what he was doing out side of a bit in Judo. That element of surprise is a very good weapon in any confrontation.

By hitting with no protection, you can never learn to hit with full force.

Even with all the padding in the world I would not want to spar with somebody that is hitting me full force with a wide range of attacks. I seriously doubt any sport fighters do this...I've heard that the Muay Thai guys train in light sparring...and do they throw elbows and face knees full contact?
2nd, when I get into a fight there will not be protection so I do not really need to know how to hit super hard with protection because it is a false sense of my abilities.
Those two combined make for a very unrealistic scenario...being hit full force covered in padding, and learning to hit with protective equipment to minimize my own tissue trauma.

[SevenStar]

LOL!

So let me get this straight. The guy that takes bareknuckle hits if he fails to block them, the guy that lands on a hard surface if he gets taken down or thrown, who regularily takes hard shin kicks with no padding, has had numerous dents in his shins, has been unable to move various things because they've been otherwise hit, slammed, jarred, or jammed is the one doing pretend training?

If you are throwing onto hard floors, you won't really learn how to throw and land very well because you are always having to worry about injuries from landing on a hard surface... same if you are sparring without protective gear.

That is the fatal flaw of the "lethal" techniques approach.

Sorry but when I get into a fight in the street there is a hard surface. If you train properly, and evidently you don't, you learn how to minimalize the impact of hitting the ground. I don't need soft pads to learn how to throw or be thrown.

How the hell am I the one not training in reality? No pads, no mouthguard, no fancy soft mats...that sounds like reality to me.

here's the thing... I would bet my next paycheck that if a person trained judo and did randori several times per week on either hardwood or concrete, they would not have training partners long. Judo already has a high injury rate, and that's on mats. It would multiply exponentially on a hard surface. you would never have training partners, literally. Consequently, when I hear someone say they do throws on hard surfaces, my first thought is that they aren't doing hard throws. My second thought is that if they are doing hard throws, they don't do them very often. And honestly, I would love to see ANYONE do even three weeks of daily, hard randori on a hard surface and report their results.

Same thing with sparring bare knuck. When I trained karate, we sparred that way, but there was no face contact. With face contact allowed, you would incur lots of bruises, which while doable looks bad if you work a professional job. In addition, full contact elbows, knees and hooks to the head with no headgear, just like randori on hard surfaces, would result in a loss of many training partners.

Hard shin kicks with no padding is common.

[SevenStar]

Although I would agree that it is good to train with mats, which we have done and will do in the future. There is still something to be said about training on real surfaces and learning how to land properly...which you apparently don't know how to do.
The way we train is a mix of reality based training and skill/attribute training. The latter is where we spar with padding, do throws onto mats, etc. The former is where we incorporate situational drills, potential lethal attacks, and other studies of anatomy that lend themselves to seriously hurting someone if you have to. It is worthwhile to train full resistance in drills that are not just sparring but also sneak attacks, grabs, etc.

see, that's more of what I figured. It's not 5 minutes of constant throwing, 30 minutes or more per day, several days per week. There's a big difference between that and doing drills, even if you are throwing with a decent amount of force.

Even with all the padding in the world I would not want to spar with somebody that is hitting me full force with a wide range of attacks. I seriously doubt any sport fighters do this...I've heard that the Muay Thai guys train in light sparring...and do they throw elbows and face knees full contact?

it's not uncommon for fighters in thailand to have fights on a weekly basis. If they get hurt in sparring they cannot fight. Naturally, they train lighter, but they fight so often that it doesn't matter much.

2nd, when I get into a fight there will not be protection so I do not really need to know how to hit super hard with protection because it is a false sense of my abilities.

Not really. when you are sparring, common sense tells you to still try and aovid being struck. I always get a laugh from some of the idiotic comments I see here and on other forums to the effect of "with padding, I don't mind being hit, so I am less likely to evade or block." it's just plain stupid for one, and secondly, those who would do that don't really understand the point of what they are doing.

in regards to striking, it's similar. you shouldn't be punching to the forehead just because you can - target placement. you still want to strike the jaw, nose, etc. - places you can safely hit with no padding as well.

[SevenStar]

I think there is a major difference for people that are training for reality and people that are training for a matted training surface. Going to the ground is a serious thing for me because one, it hurts, and two there may be other people around to stomp my head in. If you fight on the ground you should be aware of these and understand that landing on your knees on cement is awful. This teaches you to perform ground related techniques in such a manner that you do not injure yourself too bad.

I had two fights this weekend where I went to the ground. In neither did I get stomped by anyone. In the first one, one of his buddies was talking smack while I was mounted on the guy, but I was postured up and had both of my hands free in case he did try something. He didn't. In the other, I guy tried to take me down and I sprawled out on him. We were outside and his face was slammed into the concrete. I also choked two people out this weekend, one from a standing rear naked and the other was the first ground incident I mentioned. While his buddy was talking, the guy kept trying to bump his hips and bridge and roll me off of him. He ended up turning himself over, and once another bouncer got his friend, I choked the guy out and cuffed him. I performed all of these techniques the exact way we train them in class.

Unless you are doing a throw like drop seionage, why would you be going to your knees? Or are you referring to the way many wrestlers perform a double leg?

Hardcore kung fu is not for everybody but to me it is addressing the most crucial elements of combat without sugarcoating or otherwise dandifying the brutality and stark reality of fighting.

see above.

[WinterPalm]

here's the thing... I would bet my next paycheck that if a person trained judo and did randori several times per week on either hardwood or concrete, they would not have training partners long. Judo already has a high injury rate, and that's on mats. It would multiply exponentially on a hard surface. you would never have training partners, literally. Consequently, when I hear someone say they do throws on hard surfaces, my first thought is that they aren't doing hard throws. My second thought is that if they are doing hard throws, they don't do them very often. And honestly, I would love to see ANYONE do even three weeks of daily, hard randori on a hard surface and report their results.

Same thing with sparring bare knuck. When I trained karate, we sparred that way, but there was no face contact. With face contact allowed, you would incur lots of bruises, which while doable looks bad if you work a professional job. In addition, full contact elbows, knees and hooks to the head with no headgear, just like randori on hard surfaces, would result in a loss of many training partners.

Hard shin kicks with no padding is common.

Although my knowledge of Judo is very limited, I'm sure they trained at some point on hard surfaces. Maybe back in the day...
Any sport that is competitive is going to have injuries and should be trained with all safety precautions in mind.
Obviously we practice the head landing throws slower...even with mats these can be very dangerous. You should still learn to breakfall with legs, hands, rolls, etc. That is a crucial skill. You can do these with or without mats...mats are good for learning, and no mats for reality.
We train with a certain level of control, controlling oneself leads to controlling your opponent, that is a theoretical approach we employ.
Sparring without gloves does include getting hit in the head bare knuck. We do not try to knock each other out but we do get hit in the head with various things. It's something you learn to deal with and if you lose teeth, them's the breaks...maybe next time you will block better! Although I do have insurance so my opinion is skewed...but like pads not making you willing to take hits, having dental insurance does not lend itself to getting your teeth knocked out. That said I like to wear a mouthguard.

Training is training. It is not fighting. There are many things no one trains full contact sparring but that they do in fighting effectively.

[WinterPalm]

see, that's more of what I figured. It's not 5 minutes of constant throwing, 30 minutes or more per day, several days per week. There's a big difference between that and doing drills, even if you are throwing with a decent amount of force.

Without a doubt Judo does provide some of the best executions of throws. We are based on striking to set up throws and takedowns. Different approaches I suppose.


it's not uncommon for fighters in thailand to have fights on a weekly basis. If they get hurt in sparring they cannot fight. Naturally, they train lighter, but they fight so often that it doesn't matter much.

I know that. That's what I was refering to. For myself, I do not know when I am going to have to fight or defend myself. I need to be in shape and healthy ALL the time...not just at the end of my peaking six weeks.

Not really. when you are sparring, common sense tells you to still try and aovid being struck. I always get a laugh from some of the idiotic comments I see here and on other forums to the effect of "with padding, I don't mind being hit, so I am less likely to evade or block." it's just plain stupid for one, and secondly, those who would do that don't really understand the point of what they are doing.

Well if people are saying that when they wear pads they are less likely to block they are silly. The fact remains that being used to getting hit without padding and with padding are two different things that reinforce imaginary abilities. I know that in the right spots with the right amount of force, I will break.

in regards to striking, it's similar. you shouldn't be punching to the forehead just because you can - target placement. you still want to strike the jaw, nose, etc. - places you can safely hit with no padding as well.

In intense sparring it can be difficult to hit a precise target. I believe that is a common arguement against structurally weak target training. That said, hand conditioning and palm strikes are very effective methods of training.

[WinterPalm]

I had two fights this weekend where I went to the ground. In neither did I get stomped by anyone. In the first one, one of his buddies was talking smack while I was mounted on the guy, but I was postured up and had both of my hands free in case he did try something. He didn't. In the other, I guy tried to take me down and I sprawled out on him. We were outside and his face was slammed into the concrete. I also choked two people out this weekend, one from a standing rear naked and the other was the first ground incident I mentioned. While his buddy was talking, the guy kept trying to bump his hips and bridge and roll me off of him. He ended up turning himself over, and once another bouncer got his friend, I choked the guy out and cuffed him. I performed all of these techniques the exact way we train them in class.

Unless you are doing a throw like drop seionage, why would you be going to your knees? Or are you referring to the way many wrestlers perform a double leg?



see above.

You and I train for similar things. We have similar outcomes. This debate will devolve into a style vs. style debate.
I assumed you were a sport fighter.
Likewise, I train against skilled opponents in my school and likewise my opponents on the street will probably be at best, as Sifu says, skilled street fighters. Randy Couture isn't goint to pick a fight with me.
The usage of martial art is to defend yourself on the street and to protect your life. I agree with that...or get paid to do it!
I agree that if one trains properly you can use any type of martial training to protect you. You must make your paradigm and skills work by training them very hard and applying them.

It is fortunate you were not hurt. I have witnessed ground fighting that when the one guy got the mount his buddies came and kicked his head in. The man lost several teeth, broke his nose, and was covered in blood. If you are taken down, get out as fast as possible doing as much damage as you have to and regain a better position. Position is everything...that is crucial to what we do.

[Knifefighter]

You and I train for similar things. We have similar outcomes. I assumed you were a sport fighter.

Could you post some clips of your non-sport fighting training? Maybe that will give us a better idea what you are talking about.