Unrealistic forms

[X-Warrior]

I see this over and over and over and over, again and again and again: forms are done unrealistically! I was just viewing the CLF clips HSK you mentioned on uTube and I have seen this there too on the majority of single person forms:

When people do forms, the NEVER look BEFORE they punch - or kick, block or turn - to another direction. Why do people execute forms this way? Performers merely turn and punch at the same time, or kick at the same time as they turn. How do you know you have to punch to kick at another direction or how you have to punch, kick or block at another direction if you don't even know there's a person standing there, let alone what he is doing? 90% of forms I see - and have seen - in my life are executed the wrong way. It creates a mechanical, robotic dance performance that makes no sense and have no realistic value.

I always teach my students, your first step before you turn is to LOOK, then once you know what you need to do, execute your move. But don't turn and punch at the same time because that will get you nowhere in a realistic fight.

ALWAYS look BEFORE you turn! Try it, it will make a lot of sense.

-X-

[TenTigers]

Not in all cases. In Gung-Fu, there is an expression, "The eyes follow the hands." Forms are not an imaginary fight against multiple opponents.Not all direction changes mean that they are facing a different opponent. Sometimes a direction change is a throw, or a maneuver around the same person. Sometimes a direction change is due to lack of space, sometimes shifting horse is gung-faht, rather than kuen-faht.

[hskwarrior]

when it comes to forms i've realized that there are Performers, and actual fighters.

Performers are more concerned about looking good, proper mechanics, flash, and if they are pleasing the crowd. it's obvious in their techniques when you see them apply them there is something lacking.

However, fighters who understand their gung fu can in fact move from position to position without turning their heads or looking in the direction they are attacking in first because they know (in their own minds) what's going on. remember, it's just a form.

what I mean is I always assume (based on the techniques of the form) that i am applying the techniques with the mindset of injuring someone. Me, i'm not a performer, i practice my martial arts for survival (mainly since it's pretty violent where i live) and out of necessity. so it's a given to say that my gung fu may look differently than someone who is just a performer. the sets purposes change from person to person.

However, in a slow to medium paced class, i do in fact instruct my students to look first before they move for the very same reasons X warrior mentioned. still on the higher level, it all blends into one when you completely understand YOUR gung fu, not gung fu in general.


peace.

[Hopping Frog]

Also keep in mind that forms are a means of expression as well. Many smart, tough martial artists still put thought into how their forms look. Doing a form that and trying to stress elegance, balance, or strong stances doesn't mean that the player is any less tough.

[Eddie]

Performers are more concerned about ......., proper mechanics, ....

a gopod fighter should also be concerned with proper mechanics. Body structure and form is just as important to real fighting as it is with forms.

Remember, forms are segments of movements, differenrt moves and apps if you may.as some one said, its not about turning to face another oponent.

and besides, when you fight, do you really look around in different directions, or are you focussing onto somehting else?

[hskwarrior]

one thing that happens in a combative situation is that in most cases we develop something called "tunnel vision" and all we see is what's directly ahead of us. this is a very bad situation for most people, especially CLF folks since we also focus on fighting multiple attackers.

thats why its important to always keep turning your head to see if after you launched one attack you would be able to see if another is coming from a different direction. if you are so focused on what's in front of you you will never see the guy behind you.

see, no harm intended, but most of the MA teachers out there only focus on either tournament fighting, ring matches, or what ever, and that's all fine and dandy, but for myself, i am along the lines of being a "reality based" teacher. for one reason, where i live your live can be on the line at any second for any reason, sometimes just for nothing. for example, my student jason was in downtown SF standing on the corner when out of nowhere came this big guy yelling at jason. Jason out of self preservation dropped the guy with a kwa sou, and walked away. the guy followed him, and jason dropped him again. people who witnessed it told him to just keep going, but this guy followed him and jason just kept dropping the kwa sou on him until the guy decided to just walk away. till this day jason doesn't know why that guy approached him that way.

geting back to the point, it is very important to develop a sense of awarenes all around you therefore eliminating the chance of surprise attacks. Tunnel Vision can seriously hinder your progress as a fighter. In fact, there are not a lot of gung fu schools that focus on that reality due to "LIABILITY. " None of you school owners can afford to be sued if something went wrong.

in fact, because of the lack of "reality" training, it's my personal opinion that most martial artists will fall short in real combat. for instance, i've seen many traditional fighters lose because they don't know how to deal with the clinche and freak out. out on the street the clinch in inevitable, but it's element is different than in the ring.

before this gets too far off topic, it's one goal to break that tunnel vision, and another to train your eyes as well as your arms and legs. your eyes (whether looking around, or focused on one big picture (instead of one little one) are really important. I have a question, has either of you here ever been talking to someone and not take your eyes off of that person and blocked a punch that came at you from your peripherals?

i train my students to use their peripherals all the time. that way their picture is on a larger scale allowing to see more that just what's right in front of them. it really comes in handy during training.

but i want to also agree with ten tigers, we are also trained to watch your hands which also forces your head to move like you are looking right or left.

peace

[bakxierboxer]

I see this over and over and over and over, again and again and again: forms are done unrealistically! I was just viewing the CLF clips HSK you mentioned on uTube and I have seen this there too on the majority of single person forms

You don't train in CLF, do you?
A rather old example that might be "food for thought" is the Chinese Boxer in the old Charleton Heston "55 Days to Peking" flic.
The man does a reasonable impression of a Chinese "whirling dervish".
In some ways, some of CLF was developed for "exactly that". (Boxer Rebellion)

When people do forms, the NEVER look BEFORE they punch - or kick, block or turn - to another direction. Why do people execute forms this way?

It mostly depends on "context"/"intent".
Mu/mo-gungfu is supposed to be "shadowboxing"/"acting"/"mime". The degree of correctness can be accurately judged by a decent SiFu.

Performers merely turn and punch at the same time, or kick at the same time as they turn. How do you know you have to punch to kick at another direction or how you have to punch, kick or block at another direction if you don't even know there's a person standing there, let alone what he is doing?

The context you are talking about is a "battle" against multiple opponents and there is no point in such an encounter when you are solely focussed on a single opponent. The "radar"/"sonar"/peripheral-vision/etc are all set at "max".
Additional "targets of opportunity" are picked up "on the fly".
Said decent SiFu can tell and will test for this if he feels it is needed.

90% of forms I see - and have seen - in my life are executed the wrong way. It creates a mechanical, robotic dance performance that makes no sense and have no realistic value.

I have no use for robots, either.
Sets are supposed to be "alive"... same as the art itself.

I always teach my students, your first step before you turn is to LOOK, then once you know what you need to do, execute your move. But don't turn and punch at the same time because that will get you nowhere in a realistic fight.

Depending on "context" that can be dead wrong.

ALWAYS look BEFORE you turn! Try it, it will make a lot of sense.

You, or someone else should be able to come up with a context/scenario where your next move is not a turn & that is not the case. Try that one yourself.

Pete