Stances in real fights?

[Adventure427]

Hey guys, this is my 'return' to the forum from a while back. I gained tons of knowledge from you guys before and really enjoy hearing all of your viewpoints on various issues, and appretiate your contributions.

Here's my situation...I've been taking these classes of this 8step prayingmantis class (and 8step seems awesome to me by the way) and the instructor (well actually he's just the senior student of 10years, the sifu hasn't been there) said something that shocked me. We train in the stances, you know, typical of kung fu (horse, bow, 1legged, ect.) and he said something like "Now of course, you wouldn't actually use these stances/blocks, it'd look something more like this" and did something like a quick muay'thai block (hand to the ear to block a hook)

Now am i missing something? I always thought you train in kung fu to fight like kung fu, is it just to strengthen your body to be able to use a different style to fight better, or is this a mc dojo. I didn't wanna put him on the spot, so after class i asked him "So you wouldn't use these stances that we practice at all?"

His response was "The stances are more transitions, for like our throws and jointlocking techniques" and demonstrated a few times you would go into bow to do a throw, or a 1legged stance to stick out your leg and trip them.

He also went on to say "doing our typical high block," (which is typical amongst alot of systems i've seen) "wouldn't be practical because it leaves you exposed, so it would be more like this" and did a similar block to before.

Another thing we were doing was thing called a "watchout" drill which is actually a really good drill...we're punching 1 focus mitt, and the person with the mitt swings a nunchuck at you and you either duck under it or jump over it (mostly for cardio/awareness) but we do it from a boxing stance with boxer-style punches.

Is this really how kung fu guys fight and i was unaware of this all this time? Or is he misinformed and not using what he COULD be really good at by now (after 10years experience)???

PS: Im definantly not a troll, i love all martial arts. From what i've seen people have been pretty sensetive these days, so im just being careful to let you guys know that lol

[Oso]

sounds like your instructor is working in the real world. good for him and for you. he's basically correct. just keep training and if you are fighting, keep fighting and listening to him.

[WinterPalm]

There are many things you do in Kung Fu that are not strictly speaking fighting applications. They are chi gung and health related practices as well.
I would ask the Sifu. What is the point in training all these things if you are just going to do a kickboxing technique? It doesn't make sense...Now, some of those techniques from various other arts are often found within a system of kung fu...obviously we have a lead punch and a cross punch just like boxing...or a kick similar to a muay thai roundhouse. There is often a flavour or feeling to the style and to teach someone something and then say that we don't really do that in combat, that doesn't make sense to me. Why train in it if you aren't going to use it?

I don't know if you are at a McKwoon but I would suggest talking to the Sifu about these things before you make any decisions. It could be that this student is out of line.

[Golden Arms]

I dont really agree with that, although fighting is fighting, different styles DO have different approaches/answers to the same questions. You dont usually end up staying in stances as you fight, but a good fighter will move through them as his footsteps, same with the 'blocks'...there are really no blocks i know, because blocking as a concept is pretty much too slow to use unless the person was only swinging at you one time, but there are tons of parries, redirections, guards, and the like that can be used as a person moves to switch their role from defender to attacker. Generally trying to 'defend' is a losing game, but 'counter-attacking' can be a winning game. I would give it time if you like the school, you may learn something, but also realize that PM, Hung Ga, Hsing-I, etc are not going to look like boxing if you do it right, but done just ok, they may look like bad boxing, just as much as they look like bad anything else.

[WinterPalm]

In terms of stances, they are often transitions or level changes, or used for bridging against a tackle or takedown attempt. They have multiple uses in that regard. Would you start a fight in a real deep horse stance? Probably not, but if you look at wrestling or UFC fighters like Liddell, they keep a very deep almost horse stance but they are mobile and move around a lot. My stance would be a cross between a horse and a 60/40 upright position. In sparring we'll often have double/single leg takedowns in corporated and so this position is most comfortable for me. When I spar with people I haven't sparred with before, this is usually the position I take as it allows for good agility and springyness but still low enough to defend or engage in a shoot.

[Adventure427]

Thanks for the quick replies so far, interested in hearing more. So WinterPalm you mentioned chi gung and health practices, i know some of it definantly is that. Thats another reason i like kung fu so much, the stuff keeps/improves your health =)

So, the moves you perform in forms (this in relation to all kung fu styles really) you know, the blocks, the footwork, the stances, the strikes....do you fight like this? (obviously not in a pre-determined way, but do you use these stances and these strikes?) If not why not? If so how come? I can see the power in a front punch from a bow stance, yet i also see how someone may think its impractical. But i always felt like if you practice it enough you will be skilled enough to use it, but maybe i was mistaken in thinking thats how kungfu people REALLY fight?

[SevenStar]

sounds like your instructor knows what he is talking about.

[WinterPalm]

The moves in the sets are sort of like adaptive strategies, to me anyway, that are sometimes used in a similar way, or another completely different way. Much of what you do comes out in sparring even if it is only the reinforced body mechanics. I am not at a high level of understanding and ability, but from my perspective, there comes a time when it is a seamless flowing of movement.
Sometimes a reaction can happen automatically, sometimes you make it happen. It all depends on what you ingrain in yourself and practice deligently. There is no sense in training in something if you don't intend on using it if you have to or want to.
The footwork and the blocks are all very crucial, as is getting the heck out of the way!
Golden arms is right, ideally redirection and parrying is ideal but sometimes a rough block is better than nothing.
I took a steel bar to the wrist once when I blocked it as it was swung very hard for my head as I sat on the ground. Putting my hand against my ear type block would not have been a very good idea. Not saying that technique is useless, but certain situations call for certain strategies or expression of your style. Do not bring a knife to a gunfight.

[Oso]

sounds like your instructor knows what he is talking about.

lol...how come people don't like the simple answers?

[WinterPalm]

That said, don't start think you are going to look like a kung fu movie. It isn't pretty.

[MonkeyKingUSA]

I teach stance training for one type of leg conditioning. I also teach stances as transitional movements. I believe that actual fighting must be more fluid and that when a stance is taken it will only last for maybe a second until your next attack or defense.
Our blocking techniques consist mostly of quick slaps and redirections, so I think they can be used "as is". While some other styles that I have practiced must be changed a bit for actual fighting.
I don't think your instructor is giving you BS, in fact I would admire his honesty assessment. And it in no way makes his school a Mcanything.

[Adventure427]

Lol...I'm just in shock, and still not too clear. Use moves you practice, or do something else? If not why not? If so why? Enjoying the responses from your guys' more expanded perspective.

[Adventure427]

Ohh ok MonkeyKing, thats what i mean. Like, of course you wouldn't just sit in a bow stance and throw punches, you'd get clobbered. You'd get clobbered if you sat in a boxers stance aswell, you have to move. But you can move from stance to stance right?

Here's a simple demonstration (imagine): You block a punch with your left hand and step into a deep bow and strike the solar plexus with your right, and then step foward (possibly a circle step foward, or anyway of advancement in the bowstance traditionally taught) and then an uppercut or wheel fist or kick or another strike...

Also what about evading a strike by stepping into the cross stance (also called girl's foot) and then springing up into a kick (if the opponent isn't still advancing) and continuing to advance yourself or sidestep. (in your stances)

[MonkeyKingUSA]

Lol...I'm just in shock, and still not too clear. Use moves you practice, or do something else? If not why not? If so why? Enjoying the responses from your guys' more expanded perspective.

We are not saying we don't use the moves. We are simply saying we don't face a streetfighter frozen in a Cat Stance. But yes, I would try to drop into a picture perfect Kneeling Stance while punching my opponent in the nut sack. I would not however freeze in that stance and give a Bruce Lee type of yell. The stance would last a second or two till I hit him another way. Maybe from a Bow Stance. I may avoid a punch or kick with a traditional Collapse Stance. But I would not keep my leg out for my opponent to stomp.
Some styles do use exaggerated moves that are nice for forms and sparring, but I would never use them in a streetfight.
This is one reason that I think sparring is very unrelated to real fighting. You can get away with many things in sparring with its strict safety rules that can get you severely injured or killed on the street.

[WinterPalm]

If your Sifu agrees with the student's assessment of the usage, then by all means. The sets are designed for development and ingraining certain way of moving and reacting. These will come out in sparring but often the applications, which are always taught side by side with forms, are often different in appearance but the same in mechanical orientation. Certain things are done at different levels that appear different but are still very similar.
Confusing? Often, but realisitically, you cannot say to always do abc because sometimes it will be bca or gke or whatever the combination may be. Different attacks and situations require different things. Ask the Senior student what he would do if a bar came at his head and he didn't have time to duck...my Sifu had a situation like that and he redirected it...in my example, I was not even training and so did the natural thing and blocked it with my arm outstretched, not next to the ear, which is useful for some attacks and obviously better than nothing. Different tools for different projects.