Stances in real fights?

[SevenStar]

I was commenting on your post #31 or at least in relation to the direction the discussion was going.


Fighting with and without gloves is very different. You'll break your hand if you attempt many punches unless you've got really hard hands.

The difference in UFC gloves and boxing gloves is huge in what you can and cannot do.

I agree with Golden Arms that two skilled opponents with no rules is going to be over very quickly...that is if they train with that mindset.

There are types of training that make systems for street and for ring different. Although a ring fighter may train to end it quickly but still have the gas to go twelve, it is not life and death if it doesn't end quickly.
Ring fighting, in terms of minimal rules, will allow a practioner to take the sparring element of martial arts to the most realistic level. I suppose it is a means, but there are many things, such as fighting on the ground that I would not advocate in reality unless I had backup standing...not to say one should not know what to do to either avoid or deal with the ground situation.

that response was in response to the techniques he mentioned. All of them can be done while wearing gloves - I was referring to ufc gloves. the fights would end no faster. Bare knuckle, I still don't think they would end faster, but yes, the tactics and preferred striking areas would change. Going to the ground is sometimes an advantage. If I am fighting someone who is a better striker than me, or is just a big, pain-loving guy and is hard to take down with a strike, you may be better off taking him down. It's all situational.

sure, there are types of training that make training for ring and street different, but from what I've experienced in real life and read on these forums, I really don't think it would make a huge difference in the performance of a tma guy and an mma guy on the street. I'd be interested to hear what specific training would set it apart though. What do you guys do?

[WinterPalm]

LOL @ thinking pretend fighting in "street combat training" is even remotely close to life and death.

BTW, "life and death" struggles don't necessarily end quickly.

No amount of training is close to reality...no amount of cage fighting is close to reality. It is an artificial setting.

In reality you are not getting rules, refs, timed rounds...oh why bother, we're all aware of these things.

[WinterPalm]

that response was in response to the techniques he mentioned. All of them can be done while wearing gloves - I was referring to ufc gloves. the fights would end no faster. Bare knuckle, I still don't think they would end faster, but yes, the tactics and preferred striking areas would change. Going to the ground is sometimes an advantage. If I am fighting someone who is a better striker than me, or is just a big, pain-loving guy and is hard to take down with a strike, you may be better off taking him down. It's all situational.

sure, there are types of training that make training for ring and street different, but from what I've experienced in real life and read on these forums, I really don't think it would make a huge difference in the performance of a tma guy and an mma guy on the street. I'd be interested to hear what specific training would set it apart though. What do you guys do?

One simple thing would be that we spend a decent amount of time conditioning our striking tools.
Another would be mindset from the very beginning of an encounter...getting hit could mean getting stabbed. You have to take these things into account...or how about limited engagement and footwork because you might be in a small room or surrounded by other people.

[SevenStar]

the more equally skilled two combatants are the more likely it is that any fight lasts longer.

the quicker fights will tend to be between fighters of drastically different skill/experience levels.


I mean, if there is a 10th level fighter and he is fighting a 10th level monster, that fight is going to last a while. They both have the same number of hit points, probably a similar AC and probably an equal number of special abilities. It would probably be over quick only if a lot of natural 20's were rolled and all the damage die maxed every time....oh, wait...****, wrong conversation...we're talking about fighting in real life...sorry.

my bad.

see, D & D IS reality based.

[SevenStar]

One simple thing would be that we spend a decent amount of time conditioning our striking tools.
Another would be mindset from the very beginning of an encounter...getting hit could mean getting stabbed. You have to take these things into account...or how about limited engagement and footwork because you might be in a small room or surrounded by other people.

See, we do those things also, other than conditioning the hands, and some of us do that, to an extent. Any conditioning a ringfighter will need he can get from hitting a heavy bag. From shins, to elbows to hands. The thing with hands is that you are usually advised not to hit the bag with no gloves - but I do it all the time, so I condition those also. And honestly, when I trained CMA, the people doing iron palm training had conditioned hands, but not one of them could punch harder than me, other than the sifu himself, who hit a lot harder than me.

the nature of the ring itself dictates the necessity for footwork. If you get backed into the turnbuckle, you're screwed. Even once you get there, you need the footwork and tactics to get out.

mindset is similar as well. nobody WANTS to get hit, but you accept the fact that it will happen, just like you need to accept that in a knife fight you likely will get cut. just like you say getting hit could mean getting stabbed, getting hit could be the hard shot that knocks you unconscious and costs you the fight. I understand what you're getting at, but I really don't see how the differences are that dramatic.

[Knifefighter]

One simple thing would be that we spend a decent amount of time conditioning our striking tools.

Lots of "sport" fighters do this. Ali was notorious for hitting the bag without any hand protection. MT fighters do tremendous amounts of elbow and shin conditioning. Not to mention the fact that they can probably take thigh kicks better than any other fighters on earth.

Another would be mindset from the very beginning of an encounter...getting hit could mean getting stabbed.

Very reasonable from a self-defense standpoint.

However, it is purely theoretical with almost no application unless you spar full resistance against weapons.

or how about limited engagement and footwork because you might be in a small room or surrounded by other people.

Exactly like what happens when one fighter cuts the ring off or has his opponent back into a corner of the ring. Ring fighters are some of the best at reversing position when they are trapped. Sport fighters spend a significant portion of their training time working to get out from a corner or backed against a barrier.

[SevenStar]

7*, yes, I understand we don't disagree, in fact we agree on a lot. When I say comittment, a sport fighter always knows he can tap out, drop a knee, etc. Most won't go as far as letting someone take out their eye or dislocate an elbow. A streetfighter has a slightly different perspective. That is my point, comittment is perhaps a bad word, because anybody that spends hours a week, year after year training has proven comittment, even if its tiddlywinks.

definitely. I'm not getting my arm snapped if I can help it. OTOH though, I have no problem snapping someone else's arm - it's not mine. I wouldn't do it in a competition, but have almost done it at work.

When I ask a question, I try to give my answer first to show my perspective and to maintain an honest discussion. I said I favour the military style, breakdown, rebuild in a different mold, etc, etc. I prefer inexperienced kids to experienced fighters because I can train them Pak Mei style without having to work around any excess baggage. In more detail, concerning those tactics, they are integrated throughout our combination training, they are a priority.

very true. One of the biggest pains in my rear right now is a guy who trained shotokan before coming to us. I was the same pain to my cma teacher at the time, because I had already been training and had had ring fights. He had to try to get rid of all that and ingrain in the cma.

[MasterKiller]

see, D & D IS reality based.

Of course it is! This is the typical Friday night for a KFM'er:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ocKAMTw8ePo

[Fu-Pow]

The training progression for stances is medium, low and then high. High being the hardest to fight from and maintain your connection to the ground.

[Oso]

You are completely right on this one.

as in i'm wrong, given your inclusion of the caveat in my sig?


bottom line is no one knows the outcome of any fight till it happens...so all the hot air that blows around on this forum is just a waste of time.

[Golden Arms]

I dont really disagree with much you say Sevenstar, just encourage you and others to keep an open mind to what I was saying. I am far from a pajama wearing CMA guy that thinks my iron palm is going to beat a leg kick and right cross if i havent dealt with them before...What I AM saying is that a person who already has a good set of tools, and then trains their hands and fingers as weapons, learns the nervous system tricks and exploits that set them up, and can deliver, is capeable of utilizing some modes of attack that you will not have encountered in sportfighting. And I dont know why you always think I mean eye gouges but whatever

An example of a nervous system exploit would be a punch aimed at the heart with the left hand, followed by a right hook to the temple, followed by a left leg kick or blow to the liver. anyone who has done a decent amount of fighting, I would say especially sport in this case, will be familar with combos like this that set themselves up off of the opponents reaction, and if they dont react, then you just hit them with all 3. You asked about tricks like that, I cant speak for all systems, but I know in Hung, that is a HUGE part of our training, and Bak Mei appears to be similar in that regard.

[Knifefighter]

as in i'm wrong, given your inclusion of the caveat in my sig?.

No... I was agreeing with you. I think your post was right on target.

[Shossain]

Hey guys, this is my 'return' to the forum from a while back. I gained tons of knowledge from you guys before and really enjoy hearing all of your viewpoints on various issues, and appretiate your contributions.

Here's my situation...I've been taking these classes of this 8step prayingmantis class (and 8step seems awesome to me by the way) and the instructor (well actually he's just the senior student of 10years, the sifu hasn't been there) said something that shocked me. We train in the stances, you know, typical of kung fu (horse, bow, 1legged, ect.) and he said something like "Now of course, you wouldn't actually use these stances/blocks, it'd look something more like this" and did something like a quick muay'thai block (hand to the ear to block a hook)

Now am i missing something? I always thought you train in kung fu to fight like kung fu, is it just to strengthen your body to be able to use a different style to fight better, or is this a mc dojo. I didn't wanna put him on the spot, so after class i asked him "So you wouldn't use these stances that we practice at all?"

His response was "The stances are more transitions, for like our throws and jointlocking techniques" and demonstrated a few times you would go into bow to do a throw, or a 1legged stance to stick out your leg and trip them.

He also went on to say "doing our typical high block," (which is typical amongst alot of systems i've seen) "wouldn't be practical because it leaves you exposed, so it would be more like this" and did a similar block to before.

Another thing we were doing was thing called a "watchout" drill which is actually a really good drill...we're punching 1 focus mitt, and the person with the mitt swings a nunchuck at you and you either duck under it or jump over it (mostly for cardio/awareness) but we do it from a boxing stance with boxer-style punches.

Is this really how kung fu guys fight and i was unaware of this all this time? Or is he misinformed and not using what he COULD be really good at by now (after 10years experience)???

PS: Im definantly not a troll, i love all martial arts. From what i've seen people have been pretty sensetive these days, so im just being careful to let you guys know that lol

Sorry that I am intruding here as I like to share some of my ideas on this original post.. someone may already have given same or similar opinion and in such case this may be ignored.. I could not go through all the posts against this as I am a new entrant..

Let me put it in this way.. martial art is an art.. it allows you to learn different techniques of keeping you fit physically, mentally, spiritually and also as part of the practice how to defend yourself against all odds.. when one practice different stances, steps, blocks, punches, kicks, etc. that is first to learn how to do and then how to apply and then when to apply what.. so one need to learn every aspect of applying different things that may be needed at any particular moment under certain circumstances.. and circumstances are different when one practice at a school or fight at a ring or at the street.. even circumstances are different when one practice as part of routine practice or for a specific fight.. also.. in general one practice more complex and difficult things than what is required in a real fight.. again practice is more routine works while fighting is full of uncertainty..

So practicing is more for developing skills, making improvement, getting prepared to face different circumstances efficiently and effectively but not necessarily applying everything exactly as it is done in the practice..

[Oso]

No... I was agreeing with you. I think your post was right on target.

ah...my bad.