Stances in real fights?

[MonkeyKingUSA]

Winterpalm,
Good insights!

[EarthDragon]

Adventure427,
allow me to introduce myself. This is Shrfu Haley, I believe your are speaking about my student Andrew a.k.a shisung.

I am the shrfu from the school you are speaking about if I am correct you are in Buffalo NY.

I have had previous engangments the last couple wednesdays but will be teaching this wed.

What Andrew is telling and showing you is absolutley correct, take the advice from his and from Oso.
I can assure you that you are not in a "Mckwoon" but going to learn from a lineage holder in the family of 8 step. My teacher was 4th generation Shyun kwon long an his teacher master Wei Xiao Tung. Do google search on him. Also you can check out our webpage and see the lineage chart on the mantiscave.

I look forward to teaching you and answering any questions you might have but please by all means ask a lot questions on this and the northern mantis board, most peopel know me also there are some very informative people out here, just use your best judgment. see you on Wed.

[Adventure427]

Awesome, you are correct sifu Haley. So, do you also agree with monkey king i'm wondering? Would you not drop into a bowstance (for a quick second) to strike somebody and then move to another position?

I'm just making sure, because i always thought you would go from stance to stance and use the footwork. I may have misunderstood, but i felt like andrew was saying you would barely use any of the actual stances for strikes. Are the stances and strikes being done from the stances really just used for promotion of health/well being? I can definalty see how it could be used for that (as i feel amazing after practicing)

I was under the impression though, that you also would use the stances/techniques (atleast the bowstance) to deliver a quick/powerful strike while of course not just sitting there to strike (which would be fatal regardless of which stance you are static in.)

So is this what he means by the stances are just transitions? You just strike from them and flow quickly to the next movement? Because if so that makes sense, thats how i always understood it... i'm still a bit confused and perhaps you could elaborate. (on the forum please so i'm not embarassed when i see you in class tomarrow, lol)

[Yum Cha]

This is one of my favorite topics...

Firstly, most TCMA people with skill agree that stances are not static, they are an evolving motion, a series of transitions. One frozen moment in time, coordinating the entire body, linked to striking, evading, agressing, whatever.

One practices them statically to develop strength, body mechanic and physical memory.

Footwork is both the most basic and most advanced skill in martial arts.

However, if you train traditional, than fight "modern white fist" you deserve what you don't get from those trainers, and I call them trainers because they are being rather self indulgent to call themselves Sifu. Yea, I know I'm being bold, but its just one man's opinion. Give me 35 years of perspective and I'll listen, I don't come to this conclusion theoretically, or lightly.

If you want quick results and good sportfighting/self defense, by all means get into the modern sportfighting groove, but don't be tricked into thinking you are training traditional arts because you do some traditional forms and fight modern kickboxing. People lament the death of traditional arts, than pull out their daggers and strike it down themselves using "modernisation" as an excuse. Et tu Brutus?

Learning to fight "in style" does NOT mean putting a chinese name on a jab, hook, cross and haymaker, front kick, side kick and back kick.

If you want to make the style work, you have to work the style. Yes, you will get clobbered by kickboxers at first. Yes, it takes much longer. Yes, its not easy and it takes intelligence as well as heart and comittment. But, it can be done, and those who can do it will become superior to most. If of course, it is the fighting component that interests you in the first place. There are other gifts from traditional training.

You have to train differently. Commercial Kwoons love the formula, 1/2 hr conditioning, 15 minutes forms, the rest of the time Sparring. Fits nicely into slices of class time, fires up the testosterone, burns the flab. Very managable with large groups. More power to them, its obviously a popular pastime.

READ THIS and be sure, I'm NOT condeming the sport, its skills or effectiveness, just the misconception that they are somehow "Traditional Chinese Kung Fu." Don't come back at me with some ill-considered vitriol, I won't bite.

That rant being ranted, here's the flip side. Young trainees need the hardening of this kind of training. They need the ring craft, the lessons in pain, the lessons of courage, timing and interaction against a resisting opponent. But, you have to take it beyond that if you don't want your art to freeze in that format. Unfortunately, that is where too many freeze. And then, they begin looking for the next challenge....or retire "undefeated".

The trick, the elusive missing link, is to work them into "live" training that uses the style, not whatever defaults under pressure. Eventually, the style will default under pressure, and that's where the cut is made.

To my mind, a good sifu is not satisfied with raising good fighters unless they can demonstrate the skills of the style within their free-fighting interactions. The hardest thing is taking a well trained student and teaching them to use their trained skills in actual confrontations against unpredictable, agressive and motivated opponents.

Remember, fundamentally, kickboxing is strategically different to traditional fighting. The sprint v the marathon. The sword v the club. Traditional arts fight to finish within less than a minute, not to last 3 x 3 minute rounds.

No its not easy, that's why so few good Sifu can be found.

[EarthDragon]

Awesome, you are correct sifu Haley. So, do you also agree with monkey king i'm wondering? Would you not drop into a bowstance (for a quick second) to strike somebody and then move to another position?

the answer would essentailly be NO the stances have application but not as you are thinking I would never punch from a bow stance.... for instance the crossing leg stance is actually the finshed postition after a throw. but can also be a transition stance to perform So Bei a different throw.

I'm just making sure, because i always thought you would go from stance to stance and use the footwork. I may have misunderstood, but i felt like andrew was saying you would barely use any of the actual stances for strikes. Are the stances and strikes being done from the stances really just used for promotion of health/well being? I can definalty see how it could be used for that (as i feel amazing after practicing)

He is correct you do not fight from the static stances. You must remember you are in the infant stage of learning with just a couple weeks under your belt mantis is truley a fighting system. we fight from 50/50 stance mostly but our complexed foot work is a whole other animal which you will learn in time.

I was under the impression though, that you also would use the stances/techniques (atleast the bowstance) to deliver a quick/powerful strike while of course not just sitting there to strike (which would be fatal regardless of which stance you are static in.)

answered above.


So is this what he means by the stances are just transitions? You just strike from them and flow quickly to the next movement? Because if so that makes sense, thats how i always understood it... i'm still a bit confused and perhaps you could elaborate. (on the forum please so i'm not embarassed when i see you in class tomarrow, lol)

to explain to you and answer your questions is like trying to expain how to play tennis over the internet. I will be happy to show you and answer your quesitons on wednesday...
And NEVER be embarrased in class, the kwoon is there for you! Not me, it is my time I devote for the love of the arts and the love of my students. no need to be embarrased of anything...

[Oso]

stances train a certain type of strength, weight distribution and in a dynamic stance set; transitions from one weight distribution to the other. Those are the skills needed to apply power in a fight.

I personally feel that you should see 'shadows' or 'ghosts' of the traditional stances in good 'kung fu' sparring but you may not see the 'ba shi' stricly employed. What should stand out as testament to good stance training is effortless movement.

[mantis108]

Well, I don't believe that classical training (ie Kung Fu) and reality based training (ie MMA) need to be mutually exclusive. I think you could enjoy both if your school makes steps to harmonize both in a program for you.

I believe that much of the reality based training can be incorporated into your kung fu training. The ducking, bobbing, waving, shoulder rolls, etc is grouped under Shen Fa (body method) and can be drilled with simply kung Fu drills (ie mantis' feng shou drill). It a matter of how the information is presented IMHO. No offense to your instructor there but he is a senior not the Sifu right? So he might have a lot of experience behind him and he seems genuine in sharing his experiences with you but I would hope that you have a chance to get the Sifu's opinion as well. I would hope that you don't draw any conclusion at this point.

There is a close relationship between low stances, footwork, and striking (kicks). This used to be crucial development in TCMA. Nowadays without a suitable venues for testing skills in most TCMA styles, the stance training which used to be the backbone of TCMA, is increasingly marginalized.

I think your Sifu would be able to show you both the classical approach and the contemporary approach as well.

Anyway, good luck in your endeuvers.

Mantis108

[The Xia]

This is one of my favorite topics...

Firstly, most TCMA people with skill agree that stances are not static, they are an evolving motion, a series of transitions. One frozen moment in time, coordinating the entire body, linked to striking, evading, agressing, whatever.

One practices them statically to develop strength, body mechanic and physical memory.

Footwork is both the most basic and most advanced skill in martial arts.

However, if you train traditional, than fight "modern white fist" you deserve what you don't get from those trainers, and I call them trainers because they are being rather self indulgent to call themselves Sifu. Yea, I know I'm being bold, but its just one man's opinion. Give me 35 years of perspective and I'll listen, I don't come to this conclusion theoretically, or lightly.

If you want quick results and good sportfighting/self defense, by all means get into the modern sportfighting groove, but don't be tricked into thinking you are training traditional arts because you do some traditional forms and fight modern kickboxing. People lament the death of traditional arts, than pull out their daggers and strike it down themselves using "modernisation" as an excuse. Et tu Brutus?

Learning to fight "in style" does NOT mean putting a chinese name on a jab, hook, cross and haymaker, front kick, side kick and back kick.

If you want to make the style work, you have to work the style. Yes, you will get clobbered by kickboxers at first. Yes, it takes much longer. Yes, its not easy and it takes intelligence as well as heart and comittment. But, it can be done, and those who can do it will become superior to most. If of course, it is the fighting component that interests you in the first place. There are other gifts from traditional training.

You have to train differently. Commercial Kwoons love the formula, 1/2 hr conditioning, 15 minutes forms, the rest of the time Sparring. Fits nicely into slices of class time, fires up the testosterone, burns the flab. Very managable with large groups. More power to them, its obviously a popular pastime.

READ THIS and be sure, I'm NOT condeming the sport, its skills or effectiveness, just the misconception that they are somehow "Traditional Chinese Kung Fu." Don't come back at me with some ill-considered vitriol, I won't bite.

That rant being ranted, here's the flip side. Young trainees need the hardening of this kind of training. They need the ring craft, the lessons in pain, the lessons of courage, timing and interaction against a resisting opponent. But, you have to take it beyond that if you don't want your art to freeze in that format. Unfortunately, that is where too many freeze. And then, they begin looking for the next challenge....or retire "undefeated".

The trick, the elusive missing link, is to work them into "live" training that uses the style, not whatever defaults under pressure. Eventually, the style will default under pressure, and that's where the cut is made.

To my mind, a good sifu is not satisfied with raising good fighters unless they can demonstrate the skills of the style within their free-fighting interactions. The hardest thing is taking a well trained student and teaching them to use their trained skills in actual confrontations against unpredictable, agressive and motivated opponents.

Remember, fundamentally, kickboxing is strategically different to traditional fighting. The sprint v the marathon. The sword v the club. Traditional arts fight to finish within less than a minute, not to last 3 x 3 minute rounds.

No its not easy, that's why so few good Sifu can be found.

Great post Yum Cha!

[Adventure427]

Thanks to everyone for your comments so far. Very much appretiated. I dont know if i will be making it to class today Earth Dragon due to the blizzard we're having. I may tho.

Yum Cha...I very much appretiate your comments...you mentioned how it takes longer to fight with traditional ma...how long before someone gets good with this kind of trainning your talking about would you say it takes? Also you said "i dont come to this conclusion theroetically or lightly" what do you mean? You've used it? could you tell a story or two? =)

Again i feel any art has merit and it is up to the practitioner to make it work for him/her.

[EarthDragon]

adventure427
I dont think we will be having class, most everything is closing and there is a travel band. I will need your cell number to notify when these things come up. email me through our website. www.eightstepUSA.com

[Hung Gar Kid]

Hi guys im newbie in this forum but not in martial arts ive been practising hung gar style for the last 6 months and i have about 2 years experience in take won do. i can say that in hung gar style we practice stances such as horse or crane to make our legs strong as a rock but its almost impossible to execute perfect stance in a real fight. you not going to sit in a horse stance while fighting. especially out in a street where fight ends maximum after 10 seconds now practising forms is different from fighting (i think someone mentioned forms). we execute forms trying to gain perfection in combined moves along with speed. but you can never gain that ligthning speed executing perfect horse or crane stance. executing stances is good to regulate your briefing and building up strenght.

[Golden Arms]

Yum Cha, I couldnt have put it better, or even as well. Your comments echo many of the older guys I train with, and they have more than earned my respect many times over for the traditional way.

[SevenStar]

Remember, fundamentally, kickboxing is strategically different to traditional fighting. The sprint v the marathon. The sword v the club. Traditional arts fight to finish within less than a minute, not to last 3 x 3 minute rounds.

your post was awesome until you got to the last four sentences. from a sport perspective, a fighter would LOVE to end the fight in less than a minute, and on several occasions, it happens. my buddy fought on showtime over the weekend and finished the fight in 1:55. not less than one minute, but less than two is still excellent. you train to finish the fight quickly, but at the same time, you have to be prepared to continue, should the fight not end so quickly. THAT is more of the difference, not merely training to end a fight quickly.

[Golden Arms]

True Sevenstar, but also not true. You are training to end the fight quickly, using the tools of that sport system. Training to end a fight quickly when you have access to eyes, back of the head and neck, crotch, ears, throat, etc is different, because the possibility exists that a well practiced and executed attack to one of these areas with a conditioned weapon will end the confrontation MUCH faster. If both people know how to do this, then it would be like watching a knife fight, its probably going to be over pretty fast regardless of the outcome.

And if you dont beleive there are legit ways to train this stuff, thats fine, but I have detailed the basic methodology before and not had any holes poked in it, its pretty simple, just a different slant on the same thing, fighting. Conditioning and all that other stuff still play their large roles in the overall game.

[SevenStar]

True Sevenstar, but also not true. You are training to end the fight quickly, using the tools of that sport system. Training to end a fight quickly when you have access to eyes, back of the head and neck, crotch, ears, throat, etc is different, because the possibility exists that a well practiced and executed attack to one of these areas with a conditioned weapon will end the confrontation MUCH faster. If both people know how to do this, then it would be like watching a knife fight, its probably going to be over pretty fast regardless of the outcome.

And if you dont beleive there are legit ways to train this stuff, thats fine, but I have detailed the basic methodology before and not had any holes poked in it, its pretty simple, just a different slant on the same thing, fighting. Conditioning and all that other stuff still play their large roles in the overall game.

not necessarily. check out the fight between yuki nakai and gerrard gordeau. eye gouges were allowable then, but you would be fined. gordeau was knuckle deep in nakai's eye AND HE STILL LOST THE FIGHT. nakai also won his next match, though he was half blind. he is now permanently blind in that eye, but he won that day.

additionally, I'd add that those techniques you mentioned would be applied more easily from a grappling perspective, so it would change that aspect of the game, but I doubt it would change the standup game that much.