Stances in real fights?

[WinterPalm]

Taking the gloves off would drastically change the game.
Obviously any time rules are modified it changes the game.
Unless it isn't a game...

[Yum Cha]

your post was awesome until you got to the last four sentences. from a sport perspective, a fighter would LOVE to end the fight in less than a minute, and on several occasions, it happens. my buddy fought on showtime over the weekend and finished the fight in 1:55. not less than one minute, but less than two is still excellent. you train to finish the fight quickly, but at the same time, you have to be prepared to continue, should the fight not end so quickly. THAT is more of the difference, not merely training to end a fight quickly.

Hi 7*
All but the last 4 sentences? ****, I'll try harder next time...

I definately see your point about the need to be able to continue, and Golden boy made a nice extrapolation of my point.

I think the pivitol issue is rules, and training to fight with rules, being the rules of the ring, or the rules of the door security business

Of course, as I mentioned, the training is a gordian knot.

Hi Adventure

It takes so long that if you are worried about how long it takes, you might as well quit now. If you want to study martial arts, you have to give yourself to it without conditions. You have to look at it as a journey that will never reach the end, only take you higher up the mountain. As soon as you think you have learned something, that knowledge will only show you what you have yet to learn. There is no clock.

My stories are interesting, but probably only to me. I suggest you make your own stories. The best thing you can do is to understand that only you can do it, that you must take responsibility for your own development, you must decide when you are learning and when you are stagnating, only you can reach. Having it handed to you is as worthless as never having had it at all. Also understand that there are some that are simply better, and better suited to the arts. Its not for everybody, and 1 in 100 will ever make it. You have to find your place, and what works for you if you ever expect to put a lifetime into it.

Good Luck

[Golden Arms]

Like I said, to each their own. There are not a lot of people out there that are willing to be blinded just as there are not a lot that are willing to have their arms broken instead of submitting, but they do exist. They are likely not the norm however. And while yes that stuff works great grappling, there is a whole system of using it for standup, whether you choose to recognize it or not doesnt mean it cant be done.

[SevenStar]

Like I said, to each their own. There are not a lot of people out there that are willing to be blinded just as there are not a lot that are willing to have their arms broken instead of submitting, but they do exist. They are likely not the norm however. And while yes that stuff works great grappling, there is a whole system of using it for standup, whether you choose to recognize it or not doesnt mean it cant be done.

sure, anything can work. but the chances of a standing eye gouge are landing are less than they would be on the ground. And I'd be willing to bet the chances of it are less when compared to strikes to the chin and nose. chin down and head moving makes the eyes and throat difficult areas to hit. As you said though, to each their own.

[SevenStar]

Taking the gloves off would drastically change the game.
Obviously any time rules are modified it changes the game.
Unless it isn't a game...

you don't have to remove gloves for the strikes he mentioned.

[Yum Cha]

Eye gouges always seem to be the focal point on this "too deadly for the ring" debate.

What about a knee to the back of the head from your back when controlled by a side mount?

My point is, its a frame of mind built upon techniques trained and practiced. Its what comes up by default, without thinking, as a result of physical memory and sensitivity to an opponents openings.

[SevenStar]

Eye gouges always seem to be the focal point on this "too deadly for the ring" debate.

What about a knee to the back of the head from your back when controlled by a side mount?

My point is, its a frame of mind built upon techniques trained and practiced. Its what comes up by default, without thinking, as a result of physical memory and sensitivity to an opponents openings.

golden arms brought up gouges. knees to the head from side mount are great. definitely an advantage for the grappler though. however, I do understand your point. the strikes that are typically mentioned are usually either low% in standup, or are tactically more sound from the ground. it wouldn't be some equalizer that allows fights to be ended faster,in most cases. this was proven back when these strikes actually were legal. they were banned because they can cause permanent damage, like what happened to the now blinded nakai.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

your instructor has probably had sex with a midget and caughts some midget std.

spray him down with a bleach solutions for his own good.

[Yum Cha]

7*
Just to broaden the conversation a notch...

What is the difference between a good streetfighter and a good, properly trained sport fighter?

My thoughts:

The trained fighter has conditioning, probaly even technique.

The street fighter has tricks and committment (fight or flight).

So, lets talk about tricks. You could even look at Musashi on strategy. Dictating the battlefield, the time of attack, the element of surprise and confusion. Forcing the opponent into fighting your fight not theirs, leading the dance. Think about that vid of the copper using the cradle attack to the guys neck...

Every attack has a counter. Thus the attack least likely to be countered is the attack least familiar, do you take my point?

I'm a firm believer that most fights are won or lost before the first punch is thrown. Does this strategic training take place in the ring? Yes, there are elements thereof, but not to the same extent.

The other side of the coin - the fight that starts when all the sudden there is a loud bang! and as your before your eyes clear, you feel somebody's hand on your collar and from the haze you see a big fist ****ed next to your attacker's ear and the look of blood in his eyes...

I know you know what I'm talking about, the question that levels us all our, regardless of style, fittness, and philosophy is how to train to deal with it?

Indeed can you? Not to many people do the, let me king-hit you and see what you can do next scenario....although from the look of some of these guys, I may be wrong...fair enough.

I favour the military training philosophy. Break them down to nothing, and re-build them your way. Forms are a stage as well as a training technique. Free-sparring too. Controlled combination training, uncontrolled combination training. Pad, bag and protected opponent training too. And sometimes you start the series over again as the years pass and the student develops, if you follow the point I'm trying to make...

[WinterPalm]

you don't have to remove gloves for the strikes he mentioned.

I was commenting on your post #31 or at least in relation to the direction the discussion was going.


Fighting with and without gloves is very different. You'll break your hand if you attempt many punches unless you've got really hard hands.

The difference in UFC gloves and boxing gloves is huge in what you can and cannot do.

I agree with Golden Arms that two skilled opponents with no rules is going to be over very quickly...that is if they train with that mindset.

There are types of training that make systems for street and for ring different. Although a ring fighter may train to end it quickly but still have the gas to go twelve, it is not life and death if it doesn't end quickly.
Ring fighting, in terms of minimal rules, will allow a practioner to take the sparring element of martial arts to the most realistic level. I suppose it is a means, but there are many things, such as fighting on the ground that I would not advocate in reality unless I had backup standing...not to say one should not know what to do to either avoid or deal with the ground situation.

[SevenStar]

7*
Just to broaden the conversation a notch...

What is the difference between a good streetfighter and a good, properly trained sport fighter?

My thoughts:

The trained fighter has conditioning, probaly even technique.

The street fighter has tricks and committment (fight or flight).

So, lets talk about tricks. You could even look at Musashi on strategy. Dictating the battlefield, the time of attack, the element of surprise and confusion. Forcing the opponent into fighting your fight not theirs, leading the dance. Think about that vid of the copper using the cradle attack to the guys neck...

Every attack has a counter. Thus the attack least likely to be countered is the attack least familiar, do you take my point?

I'm a firm believer that most fights are won or lost before the first punch is thrown. Does this strategic training take place in the ring? Yes, there are elements thereof, but not to the same extent.

The other side of the coin - the fight that starts when all the sudden there is a loud bang! and as your before your eyes clear, you feel somebody's hand on your collar and from the haze you see a big fist ****ed next to your attacker's ear and the look of blood in his eyes...

I know you know what I'm talking about, the question that levels us all our, regardless of style, fittness, and philosophy is how to train to deal with it?

Indeed can you? Not to many people do the, let me king-hit you and see what you can do next scenario....although from the look of some of these guys, I may be wrong...fair enough.

I favour the military training philosophy. Break them down to nothing, and re-build them your way. Forms are a stage as well as a training technique. Free-sparring too. Controlled combination training, uncontrolled combination training. Pad, bag and protected opponent training too. And sometimes you start the series over again as the years pass and the student develops, if you follow the point I'm trying to make...

I actually don't disagree with anything you've said here,other than that a properly trained sport fighter does have commitment. on the subject of tricks, how big of a role do you think they play in the average cma guy's training? I have read go rin no sho, and learned alot about strategy from it, and tried to see it from his point of view, given the times that he lived in. when I was in tma, such tactics were not a priority. we learned environmental tactics and such, but nothing that the sport fighter wouldn't also learn. how do YOU train these things?

[Yum Cha]

I actually don't disagree with anything you've said here,other than that a properly trained sport fighter does have commitment. on the subject of tricks, how big of a role do you think they play in the average cma guy's training? I have read go rin no sho, and learned alot about strategy from it, and tried to see it from his point of view, given the times that he lived in. when I was in tma, such tactics were not a priority. we learned environmental tactics and such, but nothing that the sport fighter wouldn't also learn. how do YOU train these things?

7*, yes, I understand we don't disagree, in fact we agree on a lot. When I say comittment, a sport fighter always knows he can tap out, drop a knee, etc. Most won't go as far as letting someone take out their eye or dislocate an elbow. A streetfighter has a slightly different perspective. That is my point, comittment is perhaps a bad word, because anybody that spends hours a week, year after year training has proven comittment, even if its tiddlywinks.

When I ask a question, I try to give my answer first to show my perspective and to maintain an honest discussion. I said I favour the military style, breakdown, rebuild in a different mold, etc, etc. I prefer inexperienced kids to experienced fighters because I can train them Pak Mei style without having to work around any excess baggage. In more detail, concerning those tactics, they are integrated throughout our combination training, they are a priority.

In kickboxing, there is a technique I love, a low front kick that transitions into a sweeping cresent with the opposite foot, delivered before the front kick begins to retract. In essence you step down onto the front kick as the cresent comes across, for a moment, both feet are in the air, but the front lands to anchor the cresent just before it lands, and you gain an advance as well. I've seen it used to knock-out effectiveness because the guard goes down to block the front as the cresent comes through and cleans up the side of the head. Its tricky, if not a trick. But, lots of people know it these days. Those are the kinds of things I like, but built on my techniques. Also, pre-engagement techniques to gain an advantage, or re-take an advantage, based on different kinds of confusion, movement, etc. I found it integrated nicely with that thread on the OODA loop.

I am very interested in training methods and philosophies, and I certainly pay attention to people with real hands-on experience, like yourself.

[Knifefighter]

There are types of training that make systems for street and for ring different. Although a ring fighter may train to end it quickly but still have the gas to go twelve, it is not life and death if it doesn't end quickly.

LOL @ thinking pretend fighting in "street combat training" is even remotely close to life and death.

BTW, "life and death" struggles don't necessarily end quickly.

[Oso]

I agree with Golden Arms that two skilled opponents with no rules is going to be over very quickly...that is if they train with that mindset.

the more equally skilled two combatants are the more likely it is that any fight lasts longer.

the quicker fights will tend to be between fighters of drastically different skill/experience levels.


I mean, if there is a 10th level fighter and he is fighting a 10th level monster, that fight is going to last a while. They both have the same number of hit points, probably a similar AC and probably an equal number of special abilities. It would probably be over quick only if a lot of natural 20's were rolled and all the damage die maxed every time....oh, wait...****, wrong conversation...we're talking about fighting in real life...sorry.

my bad.

[Knifefighter]

the more equally skilled two combatants are the more likely it is that any fight lasts longer.

the quicker fights will tend to be between fighters of drastically different skill/experience levels.

"PS
I could be completely wrong"

You are completely right on this one.