YouTube Clips

[Indian Giver]

Hi Guy's

I'm a new member here. I have enjoied reading for a while, so decided to join.

Below are some yourube clips of my Sifu. Let me know what you guy's think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I43zffbkIsM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ACCLkCncIU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4woG9fc_LM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufHxgmmewQo

Thanks
IG

[leejunfan]

cool stuff man. He explains everything very clearly. Mucho props

[t_niehoff]

No disrespect intended --

watch the first few minutes of this clip (the whole thing won't hurt either), where Matt Thornton has the "traditional" guys show their techniques and then they go on to show why these things won't really work as they "practice" them

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...84548000318708

then apply that to these clips

and tell us what you think.

Terence

[Knifefighter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ACCLkCncIU

Big problem with the "bong gerk" from an inside range position like that... it gives away a single leg takedown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufHxgmmewQo

LOL @ putting down other arts and then showing those counters to a jab/cross combo.

[leejunfan]

t_niehoff------No disrespect intended -- but.......

I like a lot of what Matt says in regards to alive training and so on. He's pretty dead on in so many ways.... but...... dead training patterns in the beginning are important as well. Like learning the ABC's we all need a firm grasp on the basics.

The problem I see is that too many schools ONLY do dead pattern training.... and that is very bad.

Again.....No disrespect intended -- But wasn't it Matt who also said traps don't work? I'm not disagreeing with HIS experiences with trapping but trapping trained for fighting works in fighting....plain and simple.

Anyway....... good stuff all around for both sets of video's. Thanks guys.

ps: To see my views on sparring take a look at a quote from a post I did just today "I don't disallow them to spar because of level. To me...... we spar to get an understanding of the reality and speed of combat. We start off VERY VERY light.... and as skill grows so does the intensity of the sparring. Some poeple jump to conclusions that when we say "spar" we mean just strap on gear and GO!.... nothing could be further from the truth.

[Knifefighter]

But wasn't it Matt who also said traps don't work? I'm not disagreeing with HIS experiences with trapping but trapping trained for fighting works in fighting....plain and simple.

Can you post a link or two to clips of fighting where trapping is being used?

[Knifefighter]

No disrespect intended --

watch the first few minutes of this clip (the whole thing won't hurt either), where Matt Thornton has the "traditional" guys show their techniques and then they go on to show why these things won't really work as they "practice" them

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...84548000318708

That was a great clip. Tricked me for a minute.

During the first part, I thought they were doing that as if they were trying to demonstrate that those were useful and alive techniques.

I couldn't believe Matt and his guys would be thinking that.

[t_niehoff]

I've heard the argument that "dead training" is useful in the beginning -- Thornton has offered a good refutation to that before (his "I" method, which is nothing new but just his spin on motor skill development). Personally, I don't like the terms "alive" and "dead" because they are vague (everyone tells you they train alive). I prefer "realistic" -- how closely does your training match or correspond to what you are training to do, i.e., use those things in fighting (the specificity principle in psycho-motor training), the closer the match, the more effective the training (conversely, the less they correspond, the less effective the training).

The problem I have with most WCK demos is they are unrealistic -- it just won't work like that in fighting. This leaves me wondering: do the people doing the demo realize this? If so, then why are they demoing unrealistic stuff? If not, how is their stuff worthwhile?

But I do agree with you that a person needs to start with unrealistic training -- you can't *learn* in a fighting environment, too much is going on. So you reduce the "noise" to an unrealistic level and that let's you focus on the thing you are trying to learn. After you can do that thing comfortably, however, it is time to put it into a realistic environment -- continuing to "practice" in a unrealistic environment is counterproductive (the chi sao masters).

Just my view, of course.

[Indian Giver]

Not to get in a ****ing contest over any of this, as everyone has a right to their opinion. But the comment about Sifu "Putting down other arts" Well, he dosen't comment on any system he has not earned Black Belts in. He began training at age 5 and had Black Belts in Tae Kwon Do and Kenpo among others prior to learning Wing Chun. He has 40+ years in the Martial Arts and 25 + years in Public Safety as a Police Officer, Firefighter and Emergency Medic. He has been where it counts, in the street.

He has a background in Thai Boxing and grappling, so he does take things like the single leg takedown into consideration. He is applying the Bong Girk, to leg lock kicking technique from a tie up or bridge position, where he can limit the opponents ability to shoot down for a leg. And it is a technique applied very fast and not as a 1-2 motion. Naturally when teaching, the technique is applied slowly in order to see and learn the method. But if you look at the end of the clip, you get an idea as to the speed of application when he applies the technique on the guy at he edge of the mat near the thai bag. Any way, I apreciate the input and find everyones comments very educational.

Thanks for your ideas!

IG

[Knifefighter]

He has a background in Thai Boxing and grappling,

It is pretty obvious by his "tie-up" position that he has no background in either of these. If he is telling you that and trying to pass himself of has having background in those arts, he is more than likely lying to you.

He is applying the Bong Girk, to leg lock kicking technique from a tie up or bridge position, where he can limit the opponents ability to shoot down for a leg. And it is a technique applied very fast and not as a 1-2 motion. .

As someone who really does have a longtime background in both Muay Thai and grappling, I can tell you that from that tie up, doing that with the leg is feeding the opponent the single leg and making it easy for him to take you down.

[Indian Giver]

My Sifu isn't a member here but says if you do more than type, give him a call (757) 890-1188 he would be more than glad to talk with you about his background!

-IG

[Knifefighter]

My Sifu isn't a member here but says if you do more than type, give him a call (757) 890-1188 he would be more than glad to talk with you about his background!

Since I just posted and you just replied telling me what he said, he must be with you now.

Maybe he can post his grappling and MT credentials through you, since supposedly, he just had a response to my post of about 15 minutes ago.

If he is going to all of the hassle of giving you his phone number so that I can call him regarding something I just posted, maybe he could simply fill you in on the specifics of his grappling and MT background right now... that would be much simpler.

[Knifefighter]

BTW... you did post the clips asking for feedback.

I'm just giving you the heads up that he may possibly be ripping you off as a student by exaggerating his credentials and providing you with techniques that might get you in trouble against a real grappler.

If you want to think he is the real deal, it's no skin off my nose.

It would be pretty simple for you to find out whether he is pulling a fast one on you. Have him show you some wrestling tie ups that he will know from his "background" days. Ask him to show you some control points. Then, simply go to your local high school wrestling coach and have him show you the same things.

See if they are different.

I'll bet they will be... significantly so.

While you are at it, you could even show the coach the bong girk and try to keep him from getting an easy takedown.

I'd also bet you wouldn't be able to stop it.

[Knifefighter]

So let's see here...

When you posted that, it was 1:00 AM on the east coast where you are and about 15 minutes after my post. That means one of three things:

1- You are randomly giving out your sifu's number and putting words into his mouth without consulting him and he has no idea you are doing so... which would be pretty pathetic
2- He just happens to be hanging out with you at your place at 1:00 AM and he is telling you what to post, but is afraid to post it himself... which would be even more pathetic.
3- You are Sifu Massengill... which would be incredibly pathetic.

So... which is it?

[Tom Kagan]

Well, he dosen't comment on any system he has not earned Black Belts in. He began training at age 5 and had Black Belts in Tae Kwon Do and Kenpo among others prior to learning Wing Chun.

Hmmm ... he made a comment at 1:49 on the 2nd clip where he said the position this particular throw attempt puts you in a position where both opponents could be able to throw each other.

In Judo, the throw to which he refers is called Osoto Gari. Unfortunately, his comment ignores one of the most fundamental principles of any effective martial art. In Judo, that principle is called Kuzushi. (In Ving Tsun, it's called TsuiMa.)

I don't know the extent of Tony's "black belts." But, to leave out the process of unbalancing an opponent for this and other throws means either he doesn't understand it, or he constructed a strawman argument. If he is as good as you say he is, one has to wonder why he specifically chose to leave this little tidbit out. After all, if he can make his alternative work, then unbalancing is also the reason why. (My impression is those in that class did not pick up on this subtlety.)


Here is a competition clip of Yasuhiro Yamash1ta, one of the best Judo practitioners with a devastating Osoto Gari. There are several examples of the throw on this clip. If you examine each throw attempt, they are all preceded by the opponent being guided off balance. Good off balancing skills during any throw is what prevents being squashed by a counter attack:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOwlqKkEXCo

Here is the great Masahiko Kimura throwing none other than Helio Gracie with Osoto Gari:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyUFSjyvfYk

On a related note, the Yamish1ta clip also has a good example of Deashi Harai as a counter to Kouchi Gari. (Kouchi Gari is essentially the basis of what Tony Massengill's proposed as an alternative to Osoto Gari in his clip.) As you can see at 0:14, the clips shows what can happen if you attempt Kouchi Gari without good Kuzushi. In this portion of the clip,, Yamash1ta actually baited the Kouchi Gari to set up a sweet and effortless counter. That's what happens when your opponent is off balance and also fully committed.


I want to make it clear that I give value anyone who opens themselves up by posting clips of themselves to critique, comments, and ridicule from the anonymous morons of the internet peanut gallery. Regardless of whether people can rightly or wrongly pick apart the videos, they get big Kudos from me just for making this attempt to share. With a little luck, whomever makes such a video will be genuinely appreciative of the responses from the scrutiny of the public forum of peer review and not become defensive.


(Can someone please tell me how the hell I know this much about Judo when I don't study it? LOL. While you are at it, can you also explain why I am up working AGAIN this late waiting for processes to finish?)