YouTube Clips

[t_niehoff]

Guys.... and this means everyone..... it is common sense to say that if you work something within the world of non-compliant drills that eventually the light bulb or devine AH HA will happen and you'll be able to do it. But.... if you say or think something wont work, guess what.... it wont.

Peace,

"Non-compliant" does not mean realistic ("alive"). Chi sao is non-compliant drill (your partner doesn't just let you do whatever you want). However, it is completely unrealistic (people don't behave as they do in fighting). Doing non-compliant but unrealistic drills won't produce realistic skills (skills that work in a realistic setting). The only way to develop realistic skills is by training realistically.

The truth is lots of things we can't make work, no matter how long, hard, etc, we train them. Some of these things are individual and some are universal.

On the matter of "trapping" -- many good fighters "trap". It takes place all the time. Thornton, if you roll with him, will trap your arm before he goes for an armbar. Wreslters do it. It happens in the clinch all the time. What I think Thornton is talking about is "WCK trapping" as it is typically demonstrated (in chi sao, for example). This is because many people mistake the drill for the application, and think actual application will look and work like the drill. It won't. This is why when WCK people fight, they have little skill (they are trying to use their WCK tools as they do in the drills when fighting). But many WCK people believe that drill=application (how you do it in the drill will be how it works). And Thornton, seeing the drill realizes from his experience, that those things will never work as they are being practiced.

Terence

[leejunfan]

Terrence,

We're basically saying the same thing. Believe me... I agree with everything you and Thornton are saying. I never said that the Chi Sau drills you typically see translate to application. Like Lock flows in grappling they teach you many things about energy, zoning and so on.

Let's not get into a huff.... I think we're on the same page....

Besides.... to me..... non-compliant is "alive". Again.... we all have different interpretations of the meaning. Like I said in the past.... gradual steps towards all out sparring is our poison of choice.

Peace

[leejunfan]

Not at all. However, in this age of ubiquitous video footage, it is a simple matter to find evidence for claims that made for a supposedly workable technique if it really does work.

I don't know many street fighters who video tape their fights

Something about evidence and lawsuits I think

[t_niehoff]

Terrence,

We're basically saying the same thing. Believe me... I agree with everything you and Thornton are saying. I never said that the Chi Sau drills you typically see translate to application. Like Lock flows in grappling they teach you many things about energy, zoning and so on.

Let's not get into a huff.... I think we're on the same page....

Besides.... to me..... non-compliant is "alive". Again.... we all have different interpretations of the meaning. Like I said in the past.... gradual steps towards all out sparring is our poison of choice.

Peace

No huff intended, but I don't think we're on the same page -- maybe the same chapter?

I agree with you that many people have different interpretations of the term "alive" -- however, a person calling what they do "alive" (by their interpretation) doesn't make their training methods effective (to a functional degree). Thornton, as I understand it, uses that term very specifically to characterize a certain way of training; so you're using the same word but not following the same way of training. Non-compliant is not what he -- or I -- am talking about when using the term "alive". (Otherwise, we could just call it non-compliant training).

Non-compliant training is not functional (alive or realistic) training, but functional skill-building training is non-compliant. This is where many people get confused. And that's because non-compliance is just one aspect of what makes up functional skill-building training. We need to train all the aspects together to make what we do functional (because when we fight, all those aspects will be present and operating). People can get very good at their form of noncompliant training (chi sao, push ands, kiu sao, point sparring, etc.) and still not fight in a realistic environment worth beans.

FWIW, in my view, "gradual steps" toward all out sparring is not a good idea. It's like saying someone needs "gradual steps" to playing basketball. In BJJ I was rolling in my first class. Yes, you need some basics and need some level of conditioning -- but that shouldn't take very long, and then you should be out "playing the game", i.e., sparring. Fighting skill is only developed through fighting/sparring; everything else is supplemental. And besides, the only way to measure progress is via sparring.

Let me ask Dale -- what are your views on this?

Terence

[leejunfan]

well Terence then we've reached an impasse.

My methods work..... your methods work....... Matts methods work....... I guess that's all there is to it. Nothing more to say.

Peace.

[Edmund]

I am only making an observation of this one point of the clip. At this one point, he chose to ignore unbalancing. All you are telling me is he created a strawman argument so he could demonstrate a Judo-ish "Kouchi Kake", which, while not entirely useless as Knifefighter likes to tweak you with, is an extremely low percentage throw - especially with the Tori's knee climbing that high up on the grapevine of the Uke, as both I and Knifefighter observed.

So, if Tony knows all this, I still have to wonder what the point was in bashing Osoto Gari, a higher percentage throw, just to show a little chicanery at this one point.

Extremely low percentage?
Kouchi Gake is my favourite throw! I find it far easier than Osoto gari.

The thing is one judoka's worst throw is another judoka's best.
In the case of yamash1ta and kimura, osoto gari is their top technique and not many can stop them.

My problem with osoto gari is much like what Tony said and what you've been talking about with kuzushi. If uke blocks, he's in position to osoto gari back on you and just blocking it throws off your balance. That's why it's such a full commitment throw. I think osoto makikomi could be one followup if they block but I'm not great at that one.

Kouchi gake, they have to block the whole weight of my body hanging grapvined on their leg.

[Knifefighter]

FWIW, in my view, "gradual steps" toward all out sparring is not a good idea. It's like saying someone needs "gradual steps" to playing basketball. In BJJ I was rolling in my first class. Yes, you need some basics and need some level of conditioning -- but that shouldn't take very long, and then you should be out "playing the game", i.e., sparring. Fighting skill is only developed through fighting/sparring; everything else is supplemental. And besides, the only way to measure progress is via sparring.

I think there needs to be some kind of progression for beginners so they don't go all out and completely slaughter each other, even in something like BJJ.

That being said, the sooner one gets to hard sparring, the faster he will become proficient.

I also think intensity needs to be monitored in striking. With striking, I don't think it is advisable to go hard every session. That is one of the main advantages of grappling over striking. You can train at just about 100% in every session with grappling..

As far as "alive", it means in the same context as one would do it in a fight. You can take one component, such as side mount in ground fighting or jabs in boxing or pummelling in MMA, and spar with only that element because you can do it pretty much exactly the same as you would do it when fighting when all elements are combined.

Any time you take an element that is not specific to the movements of fighting, you lose the aliveness. However, while I think alive training should form the bulk of training, there still is a place for a bit of the dead stuff, as long as it's just a bit.

[Knifefighter]

I don't know many street fighters who video tape their fights

Something about evidence and lawsuits I think

OK, having removed my smart@$$ remark from above, let's revisit this.

If you are claiming that there is another way of trapping that works in a live environment, you should easily be able to record yourself and/or your students doing it when you spar all out so that it is observable for others to see.'

Using the "there's not video on the street" excuse, is a cop-out.

If you have developed something that is different that you want to keep close to the vest and not have others see, I can accept that, as I've got lots of knife stuff like that... but don't use the "it only works on street" argument.

[Knifefighter]

Terrence,

We're basically saying the same thing. Believe me... I agree with everything you and Thornton are saying. I never said that the Chi Sau drills you typically see translate to application. Like Lock flows in grappling they teach you many things about energy, zoning and so on.

Lock flows in grappling don't teach much of anything... they are a good warm up, or something to do on an easy recovery day, though. They are good for doing this in an alive way because they are specific to the same movements that occur when fighting.

[Tom Kagan]

Extremely low percentage?
Kouchi Gake is my favourite throw! I find it far easier than Osoto gari.

The thing is one judoka's worst throw is another judoka's best.
In the case of yamash1ta and kimura, osoto gari is their top technique and not many can stop them.

My problem with osoto gari is much like what Tony said and what you've been talking about with kuzushi. If uke blocks, he's in position to osoto gari back on you and just blocking it throws off your balance. That's why it's such a full commitment throw. I think osoto makikomi could be one followup if they block but I'm not great at that one.

Kouchi gake, they have to block the whole weight of my body hanging grapvined on their leg.

Well since we've gone this far with the tangent: assuming you do make Kouchi Kake work, are we talking about just getting an Ippon? Although it doesn't matter as much under Kodukan rules, don't you find yourself being countered with a sacrifice throw or landing in an inferior/neutral position more often than not?

I do not mean to imply Kouchi Kake cannot work. (That's Knifefighter tweaking you. ) However, by my comment of extremely low percentage, I mean it is not seen very often. Perhaps that's because people choose not to train it to proficiency. But, I feel, after hours upon hours of watching various clips on youtube, finding only two examples of Kouchi Kake - Tony's above, another a similar Ninjitsu demo - is a significant observation. So, while this throw may work well for you, this, by itself, may yet be only an aberration. (Of course, I could be quite wrong and just be missing it.)

Contrast this with the countless examples of other throws such as Osoto Gari pulled off at the highest levels of competition not only in Judo, but in other elite venues. Additionally, you see this throw at the more mundane mid and low level tournaments. I think you'll agree that competition is different that even practice and very far from a mere demonstration.

If you have some good examples of Kouchi Kake pulled off by various practitioners either in free practice or competition, I would like to see them if it is not too much trouble for you to find. It seems I can't get enough of this stuff.



Anyway regardless of terminology used or the particulars of a given technique, I think everyone can agree that what succeeds in a fair match between peers of the same skill level is ultimately found almost entirely within the quality of the setups and/or the chaining through the counter/re-counter/re-counter-counter cycle.

[Edmund]

Not sure where an example would be but perhaps if you search under kouchi gari... For a certain style of kouchi gari where you get your leg in a lot deeper, often when it's blocked and they are are just standing still, you can finish with gake where you just fall onto them.

kinda like this http://www.judoinfo.com/images/video...kouchigake.mov

or http://youtube.com/watch?v=DaaOPuFVa1E
After a few ouchi gari's she follows up with a kouchi gari which looks like a bit of a gake to me.

(Also seen as a followup to a failed ippon seionage.)

If you're nice you roll off beside them so you don't crush them and I suppose they can counter it with some sort of sacrifice throw. But if you are mean you just drop like a bellyflop to squash them and they won't really have much to work with.
You land with one leg out usually (half guard), and you can commence your sleeve choke from there. I wouldn't call it a inferior/neutral position. Unless they are real quick to lock it up you can get your leg out and get oseikomi.

Not your most spectacular throw unlike osoto gari.
It may not get the ippon as often due to smart opponent twisting out as soon as he feels he's going to fall back.

But osoto gari's not easy! You land one and it's usually worthy of a highlight reel because it looks like you killed the guy. There's usually no need to follow up with newaza. kouchi gake looks like you slipped and fell on him so it's a bit of a cheap throw. Still you can see how easy it is.

Maybe I'm getting my wrestling terms mixed up but I believe the "turk" is a form of kouchi gake when done from a standing position. Search around for turks maybe?

In this clip the guy is picking his opponent up into the air with a double before applying a gake as he's hitting the ground.

http://www.themat.com/CoachesCorner/technique/IntoaTurk/clip.gif

Didn't quite nail it though so no ippon! The guy didn't land on his back.

[Tom Kagan]

I can find a lot of examples of Kouchi Gari.

Regardless, I am sure you already noticed that the three examples you showed are significantly different than the variant Tony was showing in his clip.

Also (as I'm sure you noticed), the Tomoe Nage (?) sacrifice counter to the Kouchi Gari in the youtube clip. But, as you already know, under Kodukan rules it was too late because the Ippon was already over and done.

Regardless of similarity, I do find it interesting the one clip you found of Kouchi Gake at the judoinfo site was in the demonstration section of the video archive. Although the site is not complete, you cannot find an example of Kouchi Gake as of yet in the rather extensive collection of examples in the competition section.


Anyway, thanks Edmund. I know how difficult it can be to come up with examples for movements/techniques a little bit off the beaten path. But regardless of whether we can argue and enjoy our little "catch jab" play of internet banter, video examples (especially ones in the fair fight level playing field of competition or free practice) are always appreciated.

[Knifefighter]

I do not mean to imply Kouchi Kake cannot work. (That's Knifefighter tweaking you. )

Not tweaking... it simply won't work. Not the way you two are talking about (which, even that way, neither of you can find and example of someone using successfully), but the way that the clueless guy was showing on the original clip (above the knee).

[Knifefighter]

Maybe I'm getting my wrestling terms mixed up but I believe the "turk" is a form of kouchi gake when done from a standing position.

The turk is done with the opposite leg. It is normally a riding technique:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztdvsqR7r5M

Although it can be used from a takedown:
http://www.themat.com/CoachesCorner/...rk/default.php

Unlike the Kouchi Kake, the turk step IS done above the knee.

A Kouchi Kake type takedown in wrestling, even when done correctly below the knee, is an extremely low percentage move (and I would venture to say, even unworkable) because it gives the opponent exactly what he his trying to set up- a "1/2 man" angle to attack from.

This is not as big a factor in judo because of the grip on the gi.

[t_niehoff]

OK, having removed my smart@$$ remark from above, let's revisit this.

If you are claiming that there is another way of trapping that works in a live environment, you should easily be able to record yourself and/or your students doing it when you spar all out so that it is observable for others to see.'

Using the "there's not video on the street" excuse, is a cop-out.

From my perspective, "trapping" is basically a misused and abused term in WCK. Personally, I think this is one of the many Bruce-isms that so many WCK people have adopted. So I don't like or use the term (which isn't traditionally a part of WCK anyway). Instead, I use the term "jeet" -- again, not in the Bruce Lee tradition of "intercept" but as "cutting off" the opponent's offense (part of WCK's method, "faat").

Grabbing, holding, and pinning an opponent's arm -- or head or other handle -- ("trapping") while hitting him with the other hand is something you can easily find in many fights (MMA or street or hockey game). In my view, WCK "specializes" in *attached striking* of this kind (why our punch, for example, has different mechanics than say boxing which uses unattached striking).

Terence