Does anyone know anything about this school?

[larryc]

Hey Mas Judt- you're right- I have a limited understanding of CMA and any kind of bag training that is not western boxing or Okinawan makiwara. And I appreciate your careful word choice and your stating that you don't mean to offend. That's classy and by now I presume you and the other guys on this thread are cool like that. So thanks and remember I don't intend to offend any of you, either.

My only exposure to Chinese arts was for that short time that I explained, and as explained it was not typical or traditional. Only in recent years did I learn Taiji from a well-known Wushu master and I continue private lessons when time permits.

[Mas Judt]

yeah, you sound like a cool, dedicated guy - and that one comment could turn into 10 pages on a forum... but there is nothing wrong with not knowing something, despite what some might think...

[Royal Dragon]

Abbate never mentioned a "Vietnamese snake style" when I knew him. Someone in this thread posted earlier a history of Abbate's style from an old Cobra Kai manual Abbate used to give his students. I read it and do recall that is what Abbate told us when I was there. So re-read that-- that's the way I heard it, too. I really think his kung fu started with Tsai.

Reply]
No, Abbate was an accomplished martiala rtist long before he met Master Tsai. He was fromally trained in something called Tai Kit Kune. That is the Snake style I was refering to. I am not sure what it is, or where it comes from though. I was under the impression it was a Veitnamese branch of Chinese Kung Fu.

[Black Jack II]

Here is a bio on Abbate. He seems like on of those old fighting cats from the late 60's. From what I have heard from different sources is that Chicago was a wild enviroment in those times for kung fu schools, dojo wars the works.

Oddly, I do remeber one of his students stating it to be Veitnamese system, but here it is called Grand Snake Fist and it is attributed in this article to be a northern shaolin system.

Either way, it does not matter, guy has a wicked history.

http://www.tsaiskungfu.com/abbate.htm

[Royal Dragon]

OMG!! he graduated from the same Highschool as I did, only 4 years before i was born!!!

[Mas Judt]

well, I found what Kenny Tsai is doing these days...

http://provisoprobe.blogspot.com/sea...l/Kenny%20Tsai

Apples don't fall far from trees... although a friend knows him and says he's actually a great guy. Folks who never get out of thier bubble tend to come off bad in situations like the one here...

[Royal Dragon]

The Bio states he was med evaced out in 1966. The story I heard while in the school is that he got caught by vietkong, was out of ammo, injured and armed only with his Ka Bar. He apparently fought single handedly a good number (I don't remeber how many, maybe as much as a dozen) to the death before help arrived.

Abbate is a living legend in the Chicago area.

[Black Jack II]

In his supplemental testimony he tried to portray it as Gibson's Steakhouse with tits.

LMAO...that is funny.

[Mas Judt]

It's a good story - if all true he's a f@cking hero.

But honestly he was unknown in my circles and I was only aware of him because of the 'cobra-kai' patch at St. Viators.

He's probably a legend in his circles, but in 'Chicago' as a whole? Nah.

Not to take anything away from him, but the most I ever heard about him was from RD. He wasn't even on the radar of anyone I trained with.

War hero - you bet. Legend in Chicago. Get over it.

[XinKuzi]

I have seen Ganji's school competing at a couple of tournaments. The kata I recall seeing was just karate or kempo, with occasional attempts at tiger claws thrown in at odd times. The school definitely presented itself as kung fu.

[Black Jack II]

I may be wrong, but at one time I swear Gangi's school was stating they did mantis kung fu, I could be confusing that with the Valleri school in schaumburg though, at one time it was kenpo than poof.....mantis.

[Mas Judt]

Hah! I was behind that!

Hooked them up with real teachers - converted all the Villari guys in the area to something better. What they did with it was up to them.

Your welcome.

[Black Jack II]

Hah! I was behind that!

Hooked them up with real teachers - converted all the Villari guys in the area to something better. What they did with it was up to them

LMAO..no way!!

A close friend of mine went to that school back in the day while I was working on something else. I remember going to watch him in class once and was like holy cr@p 90% percent of the class is stretching.

Later he told me that it went all Mantis. When it transformed to the mantis/shaolin kenpo hybrid he then went to study kosho-ryu in Roselle on Nerge road. I think it was the Bruce Jucknik line.

[Mas Judt]

Yep. I'm the guy who got Juchnik into the other Villari schools in Illinois. Heck - I flew the f@cker out to Chicago to mee them. (Course I got them to pay for it)

I'd met a guy who bought the schaumberg school - I thought the Villari guys were tools, but the local intructors were nice guys - so I pointed them in new directions.

Honestly, the guy in Shcaumberg was pretty much a f@ck up. He destroyed his own school through stupidity. But the other guys were good, tough guys... once exposed to other stuff they walked away from the Villaru stuff.

Just another day doing good work...

[larryc]

Hey XinKuzi - your statement "I have seen Ganji's school competing at a couple of tournaments. The kata I recall seeing was just karate or kempo" might give karate and kempo a bad name. No offense to Gangi, as I threw him some praise in earlier posts, but a practitioner of karate or kempo he is NOT.

Karate or Kempo as passed along by Okinawan masters who founded the styles to their successors is clean, effective and graceful stuff. Check out Eizo Shimabuku at http://www.toyei.com/ so you can see what Karate is and you won't confuse it with what Gangi does. And check out this guy Stanic Milos (http://www.karate.org.yu/articles.htm-- check out his video clips of bunkai) who also does a decent job at presenting it realistically. The "bunkai"- or applications- of the katas/forms is what karate is supposed to stress- along with conditioning and drilling for skillful execution. Very few schools do this and that is how karate gets a bad name. Most suburban strip-mall senseis are clueless about this aspect of training. Unfortunately real karate schools are far and few between.

The writings/interviews of Shimabuku and the other acknowledged masters of his generation all say the same things: heavy repetition of intensely executed kata develops the footwork, body twisting, reflexes needed to use the moves for real; makiwara is necessary; and strength conditioning is totally important. Yet those are the three most neglected things I see in most so-called karate schools. In fact, they are not just neglected--- they are usually ABSENT altogether.

You CMA guys might appreciate that Shimabuku and all the other karate masters who are legit fully declare and acknowledge that Okinawan karate evolved from islanders being taught self defense by Chinese martial artists who were living in Okinawa before it was occupied by Japanese. Karate developed as a watered down or simplified version of Chinese arts- designed to quickly help farmers and fishermen who cannot train all day long like professional soldiers or Chinese monks. Karate forms are not as complex as Gongfu forms. I've had the good fortune of seeing in person Master Hu Jianquiang execute the most complex forms with perfect form, explosive power, and blinding speed. (http://www.wushucenter.com/Default.asp?page=masters). If you ever get a chance to see or learn from Wushu masters, go do it.

Karate was meant to be a fast way to learn to fight for people with limited time. This does not diminish the achievement of the great karate masters-- they attained a higher level, but karate started out quite simple. (It's like playing jazz on a harmonica versus playing Twinkle Little Star on a piano-- the simpler instrument can still achieve more in the hands of a skilled person.)