Does anyone know anything about this school?

[Royal Dragon]

So based in independant obvservation, what does Ganji actually do?

[Black Jack II]

Yep. I'm the guy who got Juchnik into the other Villari schools in Illinois. Heck - I flew the f@cker out to Chicago to mee them. (Course I got them to pay for it)

Heh...by that line I take it Mas Judt is not a fan of the Juchnik.

I know only a couple of the Kosho-Ryu guys, one of them seems to be very talented, a nice person, but man o man sometimes it seems that Bruce is like a diety in those studios. The art seems interesting from what little I have been exposed to it, it seems indepth, my kenpo play/exposure was more of the older McSweeny style material, where that looks simple in terms of context, the kosho-ryu stuff seems to be vast, at least from the outside looking in.

[Royal Dragon]

My ex girlfreind did Mcsweeny Kempo through Tom Saviano. I thought it was good stuff. They had really fast hands. I got to spar with them once. I started with thier midlevel guys,and got moved up the ranks till i was totally pummled. I wish I could do that more often.

[Black Jack II]

My ex girlfreind did Mcsweeny Kempo through Tom Saviano.

I don't know anything about Tom with the expection that my bud sends his kid there twice a week for the last couple years for kenpo training. I heard some of his stuff is not like the old Mcsweeny program, that it has other fusions in there. I am not saying that is bad, the guy seems to have been around a long time and is very popular.

[Royal Dragon]

He teaches techniques and applications first. His first rank through Black belt curriculem is basically the form he had to develop for his Black belt test. After that I think they do more of McSweeny's stuff.

They are a great bunch of guys there. I used to go out with them from time to time when I dated Theresa. They are really big on mixing it up full throttle.

Theresa got kicked by one of the higer up girls a little too hard once during sparring, and I ended up taking her to the ER. Turns out it was just a bone bruise, but it was a bad one.

Even Saviano's girls are tough as nails.

[larryc]

Royal Dragon- you asked "So based in independant obvservation, what does Ganji actually do?" -

He treats people with respect, attracts a lot of students, and probably makes good money. As for his martial arts, at least when I knew him he was teaching good point/semi-contact sparring, his idea of practical self-defense, light basics, and no forms. I doubt any of it was a traditional system. He could be different now-- that was years ago.

Go visit Gangi. He was always a super friendly and open-minded guy. I think you could inquire about what he teaches without ****ing him off. If it were Abbate (at least when I knew him), on the other hand, I'd say don't visit and ask those kinds of questions.

I remember one visitor at the old Abbate school was a blackbelt in tae kwon do and he walked in with a bit too much swagger and bragged about his tournament winnings and asked if Cobra Kai "sparred a lot" and said he only believed in sparring "hard"-- and Abbate smiled and said "Sure...we spar..." You guys can figure out the rest. To his credit, this guy came back - bruises and all - and hung in there for a few months.

[Royal Dragon]

Royal Dragon- you asked "So based in independant obvservation, what does Ganji actually do?" -

He treats people with respect, attracts a lot of students, and probably makes good money. As for his martial arts, at least when I knew him he was teaching good point/semi-contact sparring, his idea of practical self-defense, light basics, and no forms. I doubt any of it was a traditional system. He could be different now-- that was years ago.

Go visit Gangi. He was always a super friendly and open-minded guy. I think you could inquire about what he teaches without ****ing him off. If it were Abbate (at least when I knew him), on the other hand, I'd say don't visit and ask those kinds of questions.


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I am more curious as to the opinions of independant obvservers. I ma really not curious enough to actually go and find him. amybe if I was on the road, and passed his school by happen chance, but I am just too busy to launch a major thing. I still have to go to lunch with Mas Judt, and he's been back here over a year now. I was supposd to go spar with these karate guys not more than 4 minutes from my house, I haven't had time for that ether.

Heck, I was supposed to go to guys with in my own group 2 weeks ago, and work with some of them on my system, and I haven't even done that!

I remember one visitor at the old Abbate school was a blackbelt in tae kwon do and he walked in with a bit too much swagger and bragged about his tournament winnings and asked if Cobra Kai "sparred a lot" and said he only believed in sparring "hard"-- and Abbate smiled and said "Sure...we spar..." You guys can figure out the rest. To his credit, this guy came back - bruises and all - and hung in there for a few months.

Reply]
LOL! That sounds like the Abbate i knew!! Another story, a local Chung moo quan school was bragging about an imaginary confrontation with him, where the "Third Degree" who was managing the school was going on and on about breaking Abbate's elbows. He got wind of it, went to the school and had the Chung moo quan guy running for his life! As I heard it (From both sides), the CMQ instructor ran right out the back door of the school to escape!

[Mas Judt]

While I have met Kenpo guys I respected, I am not a fan of American Kenpo per se. Juchnik is actually a VERY talented player - in my early years I was in a school affiliated with him. But I find the character of a lot of the people he has had as associates to be less than stellar - and a significant amount of his current curriculum was extracted frm Willem deThouars material - only made obscure and confusing.

He, himself is VERY impressive, even by my standards today. Hell of a player. But a lot of nonsense, and frankly, I just don't care for the American Kenpo brands. Just a personal choice, really.

[Black Jack II]

and a significant amount of his current curriculum was extracted frm Willem deThouars material - only made obscure and confusing

I heard a story regarding Willem deThouars and Bruce from one of the kosho-ryu players. He stated that Bruce kinda found Willem working as a custodian in a high school one day while doing a seminar, while Willem was watching them do the seminar, he then punched a steel doorframe and dented it, intrigued Bruce called him over and thus began the relationship.

I have NO IDEA if any of this is true, if its made up or if its got some small kernel of salt to it. Also do the Kosho cats brand themselves as being related to American Kenpo, from what little I know about the system, it seems they try and go the other route away from Parker, more of the traditional japenese outlook.

Cheers,

[Mas Judt]

The story IS true. There was a big 'kenpo summit' thing - AK and KSK guys there. Willem thought they were tools when they talked about power - when he walked away he said 'THis... is power...' and so it goes...

Juchnik was a Tracy & Kajukenbo guy - he adopted the japanese forms as he integrated willem's material - which makes it a very wierd system.

Like I said - he's a hell of a player. I respect his skill immensely.

I just think a lot of his followers (that I met) are questionable.

[Black Jack II]

The story IS true. There was a big 'kenpo summit' thing - AK and KSK guys there. Willem thought they were tools when they talked about power - when he walked away he said 'THis... is power...' and so it goes...

Nice. That is a cool story then.

[larryc]

He Royal Dragaon- you mentioned : "Another story, a local Chung moo quan school was bragging about an imaginary confrontation with him, where the "Third Degree" who was managing the school was going on and on about breaking Abbate's elbows. He got wind of it, went to the school and had the Chung moo quan guy running for his life! As I heard it (From both sides), the CMQ instructor ran right out the back door of the school to escape!"

Are you talking about those Chung Moo Kwan guys in Arlington Hts-- or somewhere near there? I grew up in AH and two guys I knew in high school were CMK guys and they always talked trash about how all other martial arts were crap except CMK and that their master was the deadliest and that they had special CMK techniques that could kill with one touch...etc.etc...I invited them to slip on the gloves with me and they declined, not surprisingly. If it's the same group, I hope Abbate spanked them.

One of those guys I knew in high school runs a martial arts school in AH now but he purports to be teaching various Chinese arts and not CMK. One of my older brothers checked him out for a while and caught him and his partner in the back room viewing Ba Gua dvds to prepare for class - after they lied and said they were getting trained in the stuff from some master.

Speaking of Korean arts--Master Yang is an amazing master who has a school in Des Plaines across from the train station by NWHY. The school has been there for decades. One of my brothers (I have a few) trained there a few years and I got to go when I was in town visiting. Master Yang's sign out front says "Judo Karate" but he teaches what my bro and I think are Hapkido and some non-sport form of TKD. It's a lot of hands like karate. He speaks Korean in class. The workouts are really tough and the throwing and landing take a lot out of you, too. No wonder the guy is built like an NFL player. It's amazing that he is so old but so **** strong and quick. This old dude can kick serious ass with those Hapkido moves like Bong Soo Hahn did in the Billy Jack movies.

[Royal Dragon]

I have had a lot of experiance with Chung Moo Quan guys. I may know the one in Arlington hts. That group was originally headed up by aguy named Glenn Gottner. He had a guy named Jim Perri running it for a long time. Perri eventually ended up owning the school.

I think he is in Yorkville now, and I don't know if he has anything to do with the school anymore.

Thye started in the Glenview school, moved to Roselle, and Shaumburg, and finnaly to Arlington Hts.

As Master Abbate told the story, the CMQ guy ran for his life before anything physical could happen. That was at a different school though, not AH.

I did some research on CMQ's so called master. It turns out he was barely a Black Belt in Kong Su Do, and has about 12-14 months training in Lui Shui Tien's Longfist/Mantis & maybe some intro to his Bagua system. He might also have been under one of the group Chinese masters Lui Shui Tien ran with back in Korea. Either way, he's from that circle, and he didn't get very far in it.

[larryc]

Hey Royal Dragon--- it is to be understood to all who read this that in fairness to Glenn Gottner, I have never trained with him nor have I even seen him since 1983, and one of my brothers trained with him recently and likes him (despite the alleged deception). How's that for qualifiying a statement?

But- I am an honest man so I will identify the CMK guy I was referring to as Gottner. Yes, my brother was training CMA with Gottner recently and it was my brother who caught Gottner and his buddy viewing the dvds before teaching the same stuff to the class and telling the class they were learning it from a master. That's just wrong...yet my nice bro says despite that he likes Gottner and still thinks highly of him. (Lucky for Gottner it was not my other brother, who would have handled it a la Abbate.) I find it totally unacceptable and whether or not Gottner is any good is not the issue - the issue is honesty to customers.

In a gesture of respect since one of my brothers likes Gottner, I will say that when I went to high school with Gottner he seemed like a pretty nice and reserved guy. I didn't hang around with him but we had mutual friends. Gottner did not seem particularly athletic, but I knew he was in CMK. I don't think any of the CMK students who boasted or disrespected other schools can be blamed personally-- I knew a few of them and they all spewed the same words as if scripted-- leading me to conclude that the CMK instructor was brainwashing teenage students.

Again- in fairness and respect- for anyone thinking of training with Gottner, don't assume my account is totally accurate- though I believe what I say. Give him a chance and judge him for yourself. I apologize in advance to Gottner if I got the facts wrong.

[Royal Dragon]

I have not spoken to him in a long time. I would not mind some contact info if you would be willing to PM me with it.

Last I heard, he was under Master Jerry Cook out of Arizona (or was it California, I forgot which).

The CMQ guys had it roough, because they put their hearts an souls into thier training, only to find that in the end it was all fake made up stuff. By that tijme many of them had schools full of students, and had no real material to teach.

although I hate to advocate teaching off of video, its quite a bit better than teaching Chung Moo Quan to anyone. Even the legit stuff in CMQ was so badly taught that it is hardly recogniseable to the original lineages it came from.

Hopefully they have a close by teacher to guide them at this point. I have done the video/book learning thing in the past myself. I did find benifit, but it really took a live teacher to make my most significant advances.