New Liu He/Zi Ran Men Clips

[Graculus]

Good information and links - thanks to all.

While we're on the subject, I thought I would ask something that I've been wondering about for a long time. Maybe Blacktiger or Citong Shifu will be able to find out... or perhaps someone else knows?.

It concerns Wan Lai Sheng's teacher, Du Xinwu (Tu Hsin-wu). In Smith & Draeger's Asian Fighting Arts, Smith writes:

'When over sixty years old Tu defeated his senior student three times, the last time sending him to hospital. This student entered the 1928 national tournament and badly hurt several opponents by using illegal methods. The other boxers threatened to kill him unless he withdrew. He retreated, but in the Shanghai tournament a few years later he was again in the thick of things, using an illegal eye-spear, until he was forced out.' p.27

Who was this student, and does anyone know anything about him?

Graculus

[golden arhat]

hate to ask the question

but are any of you actually winning fights ???

a
and if you are
who and where please ?

i mean its all good saying that this and that master beat so and so full contact

but just cos hes hard doesnt make you hard

so can any of u make it work consistently ?

[Citong Shifu]

hate to ask the question

but are any of you actually winning fights ???

a
and if you are
who and where please ?

i mean its all good saying that this and that master beat so and so full contact

but just cos hes hard doesnt make you hard

so can any of u make it work consistently ?

UUUUUUUM, What type of fighting are you asking about. I think we have all sparred with some kind of success at one point or another and I'm sure most of us has had to defend ourselves as well. So, I guess the answer to your question is "yes". however, if your asking how many of us go around challenging others, ect, for the sake of trying our art, then I dont know. What exactly are you asking?

I actually enjoy the training aspects. However, I do a great deal of sparring, but as we all know, sparring is a training tool. I have had other CMAist and stylist ask to spar with me and I accepted. I have always came out on top. So Far! of course, these were not professional venue fights, but rather, one artist checking another artist.

I cant speak for the other guys on this thread, but i'm sure they think as I do. The focus is on training and learning to apply our kungfu. Thats the focus!!!! Why worry about fighting? Anyone can fight! Know what I mean?

[Blacktiger]

Good information and links - thanks to all.

While we're on the subject, I thought I would ask something that I've been wondering about for a long time. Maybe Blacktiger or Citong Shifu will be able to find out... or perhaps someone else knows?.

It concerns Wan Lai Sheng's teacher, Du Xinwu (Tu Hsin-wu). In Smith & Draeger's Asian Fighting Arts, Smith writes:

'When over sixty years old Tu defeated his senior student three times, the last time sending him to hospital. This student entered the 1928 national tournament and badly hurt several opponents by using illegal methods. The other boxers threatened to kill him unless he withdrew. He retreated, but in the Shanghai tournament a few years later he was again in the thick of things, using an illegal eye-spear, until he was forced out.' p.27

Who was this student, and does anyone know anything about him?

Graculus

Hi there

Got some info for you

In relation to Tu sending his senior student Wan to hospital three times - this is inaccurate. Tu was a very humble man not inclined to this type of behaviour - a famous Taoist Master - I think the info here is out of wack.

Tu did have several students but those students never amounted to much apart from Wan Lai Shen of course.

As for the comp in 1928 Wan Lai Shen had to pull out due to injury breaking his wrist and was actually sick prior to the event as well.

As for illegal moves, this was a full contact enter at your own risk competition with people bringing coffins to the event, just to put this into context.

As for other boxers threats to kill him - people were already trying to do that in the ring. If other masters were unhappy with him and he was not playing fair then this goes against why Wan Lai Shen was picked as one of the 5 tigers.

Being one of the top stylists for the comp along with 4 others who were picked.

All in all the article does not seem to add up, thats my ten cents.

[ngokfei]

Don't believe the hype.

Just enjoy the system for what it is. You can take alot of past history, champions, fights, etc. with a grain of salt.

Just look at the Bruce Lee vs Wong Jack man. So who won? According to Who?


at least today public matches are being recorded and there is little place for stories. But they still say it.

WLS attacking yang Cheng Fu? Sneaking up behind him while he was washing his face then tripping him? Heard that one?

And there are many others both positive and negative on both sides.

let it rest in peace.

[Blacktiger]

Agreed.

However in this case the information comes from my Master who obtained the run down first hand from GM Wan and also his Master, Master Hong Zheng Fu many years ago.

The information chain is pretty undiluted but as you say there is always here say but for my money Im going with GM Wan as he was there this also taking into account all the other stories. The majority of which are on this line.

It would be the same situation for Northernshaolin with his Sifu Wong Jack Man - he has a direct source of information in relation to the topic.


I enjoy the system but I also think it is important to have a clear picture of history as well it - does not mean you have to get caught up in politics- I find it facinating

[Graculus]

Thanks for your replies.

Blacktiger, you may well be right, but I don't think the student in question was supposed to be Wan - Smith references Wan in several other places, but not in this anecdote. While I am not doubting Wan as Tu's successor, I wonder if there wasn't a previous student who Smith might be referring to as senior in the sense of 'started his training earliest'.

Smith, although not everyone's cup of tea, usually tried to get his stories straight (and yes, I know several of them are disputed), and this was obviously one he picked up when he was in Taiwan in the late 50's-early 60's.

As for the rules of the 1928 competition, apparently the eyes, throat and groin were off-limits.

As to why I care, it's just one of those things I've wondered about since I first read it 20 odd years ago. It doesn't matter, but sometimes knowledge and stories are interesting in their own right. As I don't have any direct contact with anyone in the Tzujan-men world, I thought I would take the opportunity to ask those who did. No axe to grind and no hero worship.

Graculus

[Blacktiger]

Nothing wrong with asking questions

And not taken as any axe to grind at all....

I knew the article was referring to someone else other than Wan which is why I said the story did not add up in relation to another student and Tu's actions.

I have nothing else I give you only the info I gained from my master and his take on the article.

[GeneChing]

Everyone has their perspective. It's interesting to hear any single witness, but you always have to take into account that said witness has his or her opinion. You can make a court case out of it but where does that get you in the end? Actually, I think the progression from actual event, like say Bruce vs Wong Jack Man, to the myth, like the version in Dragon: the Bruce Lee Story, is fascinating in itself. I've talked to several first-hand eyewitnesses to the that fight and it always amuses me no end to hear someone defend the D:tBLS version rabidly. Even when an eyewitness is rabid in their retelling, like in Rash0m0n, you need to take into account their motivations. I love hearing stories about my martial ancestors, and always repeat them to juniors when there's an underlying moral to convey.

[neilhytholt]

I got couple of Ziranmen app VCDs and one of the app forms on there is a lot like one little app form that my last teacher taught.

Of course, I've got nobody to practice it with, so so much for that. It's not a bad form, though, some hair grabs and stuff.

[Blacktiger]

Everyone has their perspective. It's interesting to hear any single witness, but you always have to take into account that said witness has his or her opinion. You can make a court case out of it but where does that get you in the end? Actually, I think the progression from actual event, like say Bruce vs Wong Jack Man, to the myth, like the version in Dragon: the Bruce Lee Story, is fascinating in itself. I've talked to several first-hand eyewitnesses to the that fight and it always amuses me no end to hear someone defend the D:tBLS version rabidly. Even when an eyewitness is rabid in their retelling, like in Rash0m0n, you need to take into account their motivations. I love hearing stories about my martial ancestors, and always repeat them to juniors when there's an underlying moral to convey.

Yep could not agree more - love hearing the different stories that filter through from masters when they have a chat or start sharing some of deeper background - fascinating stuff