Wing Chun - development of a martial art

[leejunfan]

Speaking of being at YM's level and scientific measurement... what observable, objective evidence do you have that Yip Man was at a high level in terms of fighting?

OUCH!!! That's gonna rattle some cages

[Hendrik]

Speaking of being at YM's level and scientific measurement... what observable, objective evidence do you have that Yip Man was at a high level in terms of fighting?

there are certain signature in physical action and posture that is associate with mental /physical states.

so, after one measure one's state and capability to handle them, one knows those signature.

and when one find that and even much more then one is capable is in GM YM's video. one knows GM Yip Man is much more then one in the level of attainment.

NOw, if you never measure you own state and dont have a sifu to coach you. and you dont even know the signature. then you are hopeless. why even bother to ask such a question about GM YM?


Those who know how to paint know how is other painters' level by just take a look.

and
if you dont even know about low level state switching, why even ask about Gm Yip's fighting?

you love mental speculation isnt it?

[Knifefighter]

and when one find that and even much more then one is capable is in GM YM's video.

You've seen a video of Yip Man fighting?

[t_niehoff]

If I were you, i would not make a fool of myself trying to be expert on something I have no idea with and keeping push in with my own speculation.

Example of the pot calling the kettle "black".

Hendrik, you keep talking as if you were some authority on WCK, as if you had "the answers." But you don't, and you can't unless you do the work. That work is getting out and using your WCK to fight/spar with decent people. A person can practice WCK for their entire life and never move beyond beginner unless they do the work. In fact, until you do that work, not only don't you have the "answers", you don't even understand the questions! That work is the real gung fu; that work is what makes what we do a martial art. Those questions and answers don't come from your sifu -- they can't. Those questions and answers come from your doing the work, the sparring/fighting with WCK. That work, the sparring/fighting, the application, is my sifu. When you do that work, you get results/feedback so there is no specualtion. You know. Speculation is when you don't do the work, but believe you have the answers.

As I said, I'll be in LA in June, 2008, to visit Robert. I'll be more than happy to get together with you then.

[Hendrik]

Example of the pot calling the kettle "black".

Hendrik, you keep talking as if you were some authority on WCK, as if you had "the answers." But you don't, and you can't unless you do the work. That work is getting out and using your WCK to fight/spar with decent people. A person can practice WCK for their entire life and never move beyond beginner unless they do the work. In fact, until you do that work, not only don't you have the "answers", you don't even understand the questions! That work is the real gung fu; that work is what makes what we do a martial art. Those questions and answers don't come from your sifu -- they can't. Those questions and answers come from your doing the work, the sparring/fighting with WCK.


That work, the sparring/fighting, the application, is my sifu.


When you do that work, you get results/feedback so there is no specualtion. You know. Speculation is when you don't do the work, but believe you have the answers.

As I said, I'll be in LA in June, 2008, to visit Robert. I'll be more than happy to get together with you then.

1,

I have answered your June 2008 deal a few time both in WCK.com and here. I dont think it is neccesary to waste more energy since you simple dont read and comprehend.


2, I am proposing using modern technology to do measurement and it could be done. That is a fact. so, there is no such thing as authority or not authority issue. any one could buy a $250 machine and try for themself.
as if you like, get a machine and test for yourself.

3, you could define your WCK anyway you like. such as " the sparring/fighting, the application, is my sifu." and that is respectable since anyone is entitle to thier Localization Evolution.

however, similar to all the Traditional Chinese martial art practitioners, I dont have to buy your idea and what you post is certainly not what Traditional Chinese WCK is about.

Simply put, the ancient chinese in 1850 or before DONT create something which has application (tee) and no "body" (yong). ofcause you could call your WCK as Terence WCK but that is not a representation of WCK from the Red Boat.


4, as for, "You know. Speculation is when you don't do the work, but believe you have the answers." great. HRV and EEG machines are availble for everyone. Take a look at your own data. why speculate?



5, I have told Robert, there is no need for a communication between you and me here on because we simple living and speaking in different dimention.

You go your way, I walk mine. So long. This is the last post I will response to you. Thank you and lots of love.


peace and I rest this case.

[t_niehoff]

How would Yip Man have done with Ramon Dekkers? Fantasy vs. Reality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3R4xtjl5b4

[anerlich]

Those who has broken thier negative projection pattern dont have to wired up after 1 hour.

Those who always have negative projection and rather holding it are the one needs to wired up all day long.

Which group you rather belongs to?

This is a classic example of a false dichotomy.

Not all of us have "negative projection patterns". What you are discusiing sounds like "engrams" which the sicentologists would have us use the E Meter for. You keep bringing me back to this. Your methods have about as much chance of achivieing your purported aims as does the E Meter with those of Scientology.

Of course Scientology's main purpose is to gain followers; you have stated that that is not your aim. Just as well, I think you'd be as incompetent at that as you are at making your "case" here.

Being critical of your invalid arguments and unsubstantiated opinions stated as facts does not mean one is "negative". Only that one is sensible.

[Matrix]

How would Yip Man have done with Ramon Dekkers? Fantasy vs. Reality.

Terence,
I'm just curious how you think you would do against Dekkers?

[t_niehoff]

Terence,
I'm just curious how you think you would do against Dekkers?

I'd get killed of course! (But I'd jump at the chance though). I know very well what my skill level is and what I am capable of -- from experience. To beat someone like a Dekkers you need to train like a Dekkers: you need to train until you are a world-class athlete, you need to have his level of fighting experience, etc. regardless of your martial art. Yip was never at that level. No WCK fighter (yet) has ever been at that level.

[Matrix]

To beat someone like a Dekkers you need to train like a Dekkers: you need to train until you are a world-class athlete, you need to have his level of fighting experience, etc. regardless of your martial art.

The problem as I see it is that your average joe does not have the time to train like Dekkers. World class athletes tend to be full-time athletes.
Even if they had the time they still might never get to that level since they don't have the great natural ability or body-mechanics.

But the biggest issue, IMO, is the toll that level of training takes on your body. That type of training can cause a lot of long-term damage to the body. When I was in my 20's I trained hard in kickboxing. Over time I did damage to my hip-flexors and rotator cuff that still flair up more than 25 years later. The body only has a limited ability to heal itself, so some damage will remain for a life time, and some damage will evolve to chronic conditions such as arthritis. Have you ever noticed how few old-time Muay Thai fighters seem to be around? And how many guys want to end up like Ali after a career of head shots, etc?

When you're young you think you are indestructable. Further down the road you realize you're not, and count your blessings that nobody ever really tested your man-of-steel delusions.

[t_niehoff]

The problem as I see it is that your average joe does not have the time to train like Dekkers. World class athletes tend to be full-time athletes.
Even if they had the time they still might never get to that level since they don't have the great natural ability or body-mechanics.

So what is your point? This is true in any athletic field. Most people never reach world class level in any sport. That doesn't change what people need to do to develop skill at that sport, however.

The real problem is that many people approach WCK as somehow different than other forms of athletics -- it's not. If the "average Joe" wants to be a decent level boxer or wrestler (which may be the best they can hope to attain), for example, they need to train a certain way. Most people will appreciate that. Yet, they'll believe they can train differently and develop skill in WCK.

But the biggest issue, IMO, is the toll that level of training takes on your body. That type of training can cause a lot of long-term damage to the body. When I was in my 20's I trained hard in kickboxing. Over time I did damage to my hip-flexors and rotator cuff that still flair up more than 25 years later. The body only has a limited ability to heal itself, so some damage will remain for a life time, and some damage will evolve to chronic conditions such as arthritis. Have you ever noticed how few old-time Muay Thai fighters seem to be around? And how many guys want to end up like Ali after a career of head shots, etc?

The nature of fighting, and what we need to do to prepare for it, doesn't change because we don't like it. If a person wants to develop fighting skills, they simply need to do certain things. If they don't want to do those things, for whatever reason, that is their perogative, but then they need to accept they won't develop the skills. If someone wants to be a good on the ground, they need to roll, a lot, and with good grapplers. And it will take its toll. But there is no other way to develop those skills. It's magical thinking to believe otherwise (as there is no evidence to support that view). It's the same for stand up.

When you're young you think you are indestructable. Further down the road you realize you're not, and count your blessings that nobody ever really tested your man-of-steel delusions.

People who train to be fighters have no delusions -- they learn the costs rather quickly. The only people with the delusions arethose that think fighting skill can be earned any other way.

[Matrix]

So what is your point? This is true in any athletic field. Most people never reach world class level in any sport. That doesn't change what people need to do to develop skill at that sport, however.

My point is that this level of training is not sustainable over the long-term. You will pay a price for treating your body like that.

The real problem is that many people approach WCK as somehow different than other forms of athletics -- it's not. ......... Yet, they'll believe they can train differently and develop skill in WCK.

I would say that you may have to train differently if you want to maintain your training as a life-long experience. As you get older your body does not recover as well as it used to, but that doesn't mean you have to sit down to rocking chair for exercise.

People who train to be fighters have no delusions -- they learn the costs rather quickly. The only people with the delusions arethose that think fighting skill can be earned any other way.

They really don't see the long-term costs until much later, but by then the damage is done. They have this ego-trip thing going where "no pain, no gain " is the mantra. The simple truth is that there is cause and effect, and over time the series of traumas to your body will take it's toll.

[t_niehoff]

My point is that this level of training is not sustainable over the long-term. You will pay a price for treating your body like that.

No one can maintain a world class level forever -- age catches up with us all. There is a kuit in WCK that says "Lien Kuen But Lien Gung, Dao Lao Yat Cheung Hung" (roughly - if you practice martial arts without partaking in the training, you will have nothing when you're old). Jack Dempsey was able to knock out two muggers when he was in his 70s: that ability is residual. He developed it in his youth, when he was partaking in "the training."

Contact athletic activities carry a price. If you don't want to pay that price, then take up golf or knitting.

I would say that you may have to train differently if you want to maintain your training as a life-long experience. As you get older your body does not recover as well as it used to, but that doesn't mean you have to sit down to rocking chair for exercise.

But the demands of the activity -- in this case fighting -- doesn't change because we get older. Your training, whoever you are or whatever your situation, needs to meet those demands or it will not be effective. There isn't some form of training that works for old people or lazy people; the only sort of training that works is what the athletes are doing. We know how fighters train. Don't train that way and you won't develop into a fighter. People have told me that they just can't train like that (translation: they don't want to). The answer is, of course, then don't. Maybe, for you, the costs are too high. Fine. My point is just don't kid yoruself that there is some other "less costly" way -- there isn't.

They really don't see the long-term costs until much later, but by then the damage is done. They have this ego-trip thing going where "no pain, no gain " is the mantra. The simple truth is that there is cause and effect, and over time the series of traumas to your body will take it's toll.

It's no ego trip -- fighters fight because they enjoy it. Because they enjoy it, they train to get better at it, to do it better, to increase the challenge, and enjoy it more. Why do people play american football? Same reason. Want to play american football, then train like a football player. Will you get injuries? You bet. Will it take its toll on your body? You bet. Then why do they do it? Because they enjoy playing the game. Is there some way to train to be a good football player without the punishment, without training like football players do? No. Football doesn't change becasue we get older. Regardless of your age, if you are going to get out on that field and play football, you need to train the same way -- as the demands on you will be the same.

[Matrix]

Jack Dempsey was able to knock out two muggers when he was in his 70s: that ability is residual. He developed it in his youth, when he was partaking in "the training.".

Well, I bet those 2 muggers were a couple of scrubs. I'm willing to bet that's what you would say if some WCK guy did the same thing. Besides, there are stories of little old ladies fending off muggers. This is a nothing more than an interesting anecdote.

Contact athletic activities carry a price. If you don't want to pay that price, then take up golf or knitting.

What an absurd comment. Your "my way or the highway" attitude really shows through here. There are many shades of gray, and yet you only seem to see black and white.

But the demands of the activity -- in this case fighting -- doesn't change because we get older. Your training, whoever you are or whatever your situation, needs to meet those demands or it will not be effective.

You are starting with the assumption that any form of training does not meet your criteria will not meet the demands. That is just your opinion.

My point is just don't kid yoruself that there is some other "less costly" way -- there isn't..

So you keep saying.

Regardless of your age, if you are going to get out on that field and play football, you need to train the same way -- as the demands on you will be the same.

How many 50 year old football players are there in the NFL? ..... Approximately? How about ZERO. I guess they're all too busy taking knitting lessons. Same goes for the NBA, NHL and MLB. Even golfers reach a stage where they cannot make the cut of the PGA tour. Train all you want, whatever way you want, you cannot measure up day-in and day-out at that level. Age is the great equalizer. Nobody escapes, unless they die young and that's not a very appealing alternative. Having said that, you can train in a way that maintains optimum physical fitness and skill.

[Vajramusti]

FWIW- without comment or debate from me....
Bas Ruten- a MMA icon.. currentlya Pride commentator- in the past- 3 times undefeated King of Pancrase, undefeated UFC heavyweight champ, etc etc... in an interview for "Fight magazine" -(sticking out ina sidewalk rack--))..

"And me? I kind of made the decision that it is over. I already have a pain in my knee all the time...and they can't fix it. So I decided I'm going to spare my knees for the kids, and hopefully my grandkids, cause right now I can't walk upstairs
it is so painful. I'm 41 years old.What's it going to be like when I.m 60?I don't
want to risk it.""

No Bas, no mas...

joy chaudhuri