Herbalists - Identify this herbal formula!!

[herb ox]

Ahhh... the smell of herbs and debate in the air!

Just to add to the mix (and clarify a bit)

Frankensense and Myrrh - A potent blood invigorating pair (Mo Yao and Ru Xiang) not for binding anything at all - just breaking up stasis.

Dipsaci Asperi - Xu Duan - a Yang tonic, Xu Duan translates to "connect what is broken", referring to its near miraculous ability to heal bone and ligament injuries.

Radix Pseudoginseng - San Qi - also a potent blood invigorator, may be used internally or externally to stop bleeding and to remove stasis (like a bruise). There's no relation at all to the tonifying functions of other ginsengs - this herb is specifically used for healing and invigorating blood... don't substitute it or else you lose one of the most important Dit Da herbs in your formula.

Carthamus - Hong Hua is a flower, not an oil (although I know what you're talking about, DJ) in this formula and is also for tonifying and invigorating the blood. Usually it is paired with Tao Ren (semen persicae) to powerfully break up blood stasis... given Tao Ren's absence, I'd say this formula is to be taken internally. This is further reinforced by the presence of ginger root (sheng/gan jiang) which is used mostly in formulas to 'warm the middle' - i.e. offset the coldness of the other herbs on the stomach and further invigorate.

Seems like a good formula to me to encourage healing, strengthen bone and reduce soreness after training.... if you take it to a Chinese herbalist, he/she should be able to prescribe the dosages appropriate to your constituion.

good luck!

herb ox

[cha kuen]

sorry, can't help you unless u type the chinese names.. pin yin.

=/

[Royal Dragon]

What does the Coptis do in this formula?

[PlumDragon]

Topically, Coptis clears Damp-Heat. It also has some anticoagulant (read break blood stasis) and coronary dilatory effect (read blood invigorator). it shows anti-infalmmitory effect in labs, probably due to its ability to invigorate blood and clear heat.

EDIT: Coptis is rather expensive compared to the other berberines (the common "huangs") and can be somewhat easily substituted for.

[Royal Dragon]

Interesting. We wil have to see in 12-18 months what we have. Till then it's soaking in home made rice wine, tripple distilled in my freezer to be roughly 50% alcohal (Best guess)

[Po Chi Lam]

I agree mainly with herb ox above that this is a jow formula and his indications are right on. To clarify on the coptis, there are several types of jows, some are cooling for acute problems and some should be warming for more chronic conditions. The coptis is there to provide a cooling energy to the formula. Honestly, this does not seem like a very targeted formula because of the mix of warming and cooling herbs especially the ginger. Even though it is common to see combinations of cooling and warming herbs in herbal formulas, this one does not seem to focus on the stage of the injury or even have the best ingredients for a jow formula. I think there are better formulas on the market than this one.

[Royal Dragon]

this one does not seem to focus on the stage of the injury or even have the best ingredients for a jow formula.

Reply]
Could you expand on that thought a bit?

[Becca]

This is likely a jow formula

4. Carthamus - not really much of anything, this is safflower oil I would guess a vehicle for the herbs as an alternative to alcohol.
5. Coptis - said to relieve inflammation, but of the stomach

... both are used in homeopathic healing for skin rashes/leishions and also blisters.

As for the rest of it: I'd bet it's external. Have you tried it in equal parts as an infusion?

[Royal Dragon]

I have it soaking in my Rice wine as we speak.

[Becca]

I have it soaking in my Rice wine as we speak.

Not much into jaws myself.... I was thinking it sounds like a nice hot-soak recipe and could be made with a few hours of bioling in water then thickened with aloe. Very good for battered skin on the hands and feet, I think. My herbal intrests tend to run mor along the holistic. Everything listed would make a fantastic hot soak for bum joints or rough, broken skin.

[Po Chi Lam]

this one does not seem to focus on the stage of the injury or even have the best ingredients for a jow formula.

Reply]
Could you expand on that thought a bit?

Sure I can expand on my thoughts, assuming this is a formula for external application after an injury there are different stages of the healing process. The first stage is the acute inflammation with the typical redness, swelling, loss of function, pain, and heat. In this stage of the injury cool and cold herbs should be emphasized (i.e. da huang, zhi zi, pu gong yin) in addition to the herbs that move blood and tonify the kidney (like in the formula now). Coptis is in the formula now and is cold but should be more in a higher dosage if used alone or should be used in combination with the herbs I mentioned above. The cool and cold herbs also have to be in this formula to offset the warming properties of the blood moving and kidney tonifying herbs. The second stage is the healing phase when tonification and mild blood moving should be emphasized. For this part the formula is okay, personally I would just remove the ginger root (I don't really know why it is there in the first place. It is actually a skin irritant and can be used in cold moxabustion to blister the skin. The ginger root in this formula actually makes me think it may have been for internal use originally.) I would reduce or remove the coptis at this point.

This is just my opinion from my experience in TCM school working with a lot of orthopedic problems. Basically I am just saying one jow does not fit all. I am also lucky that I have the school's herbal dispensary to use. By the way, you don't have to soak the herbs in alcohol for a long time, I usually powder it for my patients and have them mix it with vodka type alcohol and apply like a plaster.

[Royal Dragon]

So if I understand you correctly, you are saying this is more to heal an injury, more so than something like an Iron Hand formula?

[Po Chi Lam]

The formula can be used as a Iron Palm formula. I would use the cooling formula immediately after the training to control the inflammation. Since iron palm training causes minor injuries each time you train and then the body heals stronger, you want to tonify in between training. This formula has some good tonification herbs. To tonify strongly you should take internal herbs to make the bones, muscles, skin and tendons stronger. Unfortunately the herbs that tonify well are also very warming so you should see an herbalist to see if you can take the tonifying herbs or one better suited for your constitution.

[Royal Dragon]

Interesting, this formula comes with a companion that is taken internally.

[herb ox]

Po Chi Lam - your understanding of die da is most impressive. I hope you will continue to bring tha' wisdom... seen? Welcome to the forum.

By the way, nice to see Becca and Royal Dragon representin' in the TCM forum.

peace

'ox