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Thread: Martial icons and archetypes.

  1. #16

    Good post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    but, seriously, I never really bought in to any icon. I generally had teachers and other martial figures in my real life that I could look up to and model after. As I've aged and looked back, I realize they had their faults as anyone does but that makes what was good about them all the better...even if some of the bad turned out to be really bad.

    I suppose icons can be ok to draw inspiration from for some people and that's good if they can get someplace new from that inspiration.
    It's true that even icons are human beings too. But deeper then that, I think even the archetypes themselves have a lot more to them then what often meets the eye. I agree that icons can be good if people draw inspiration from them to become good martial artists. Plenty of good martial artists were inspired by the silver screen for example. I think it becomes a problem when the icon doesn't inspire people to train hard, but to act in a different way merely to feel cool. Unfortunately, I think the Shaolin monk icon tends to do this a lot (probably because the mysticism associated with this icon seems to attract a certain type). When the Shaolin monk icon inspires someone to act differently so he feels cool (as opposed to inspiring someone to train hard), I think that person will likely come off as a nerdy basket case. The more people that become like this, the more it feeds into the bad rep that martial arts have and the growth of the Rex Kwan Do icon that Gene mentioned.

  2. #17
    ttt.......

  3. #18
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    How about the one icon/archetype that is embodied by a single person? The samurai, and ninja, and shaolin monk are all clearly identifiable perpetuated at least in image and association to martial arts.

    But this conversation is incomplete without including Bruce Lee. Primarily in one of three images. 1) No shirt or wife beater, black pants 2)black "kung fu" outfit with white cuffs 3) Yellow jump suit with the black stripe. And all with nunchuks, or as it is said in the icon/archetype proper, "numbchuks".

  4. #19

    Bruce Lee as an icon.

    Quote Originally Posted by brothernumber9 View Post
    How about the one icon/archetype that is embodied by a single person? The samurai, and ninja, and shaolin monk are all clearly identifiable perpetuated at least in image and association to martial arts.

    But this conversation is incomplete without including Bruce Lee. Primarily in one of three images. 1) No shirt or wife beater, black pants 2)black "kung fu" outfit with white cuffs 3) Yellow jump suit with the black stripe. And all with nunchuks, or as it is said in the icon/archetype proper, "numbchuks".
    Good observation. I think many people have gotten into martial arts because of him. There are also loads of people that want to be like him. But people want to be more like the Bruce Lee of legend then the real Bruce Lee. The legendary Bruce Lee is the icon. But as many of us are aware, the real Bruce Lee differs from the icon. But the same can be said for other icons. Although this case is different because those other icons encompass many people where this icon is a reflection of an individual. The icon of Bruce Lee still fits into a certain kind of hero archetype. Bruce Lee’s onscreen characters were mostly calm and collected heroes who enjoyed what they did. Bruce’s characters are part of the same category as James Bond.

  5. #20
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    The taichi hippy, the "I'm a westerner who's got an easterner trapped inside of me", the I just switched from TMA to MMA so I'm tough I need to act overly masculine but really inside I just like touching men , the I'm an old sweaty guy but I love my once a week karate,
    Bless you

  6. #21
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    Bruce is definitely an icon

    Speaking of the little dragon, check out what's opening the 25th SF Asian American Film Festival:
    Finishing the Game
    credits:
    Director: Justin Lin
    Producers: Jullie Asato, Sal Gatdula, Justin Lin
    Writers: Josh Diamond, Justin Lin
    Cast: Roger Fan, Sung Kang, Dustin Nguyen, McCaleb Burnett
    USA 2007 | 88 mins | 35mm | English

    IN PERSON: Justin Lin, Sung Kang, Dustin Nguyen, Roger Fan, Leonardo Nam, McCaleb Burnett, Julie Asato, Mousa Kraish, MC Hammer, Yul Kwon (MC)

    In 1973, Bruce Lee died suddenly at the age of 32, leaving behind footage intended for his dream project THE GAME OF DEATH. Not one to miss an opportunity for profit, Hollywood executives cast stand-ins to double as Lee in a rewritten script which took advantage of 12 minutes of Lee’s real footage, including his now immortal fight with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in his iconic yellow-and-black jumpsuit.

    Following his groundbreaking indie hit BETTER LUCK TOMORROW (Opening Night, SFIAAFF ’02) as well as studio ventures ANNAPOLIS and THE FAST AND THE FURIOUS: TOKYO DRIFT, director Justin Lin returns to his roots with FINISHING THE GAME, a rollicking comedy spoof about this egregiously exploitative search for Bruce Lee’s stand-in. Documentarians capture the absurd, hilarious and sometimes disturbingly true-to-life (but decidedly fictional) audition process as a motley assortment of candidates vie for the role: a former-TV-star-turned door-to-door salesman, a Bruce Lee knockoff named Breeze Loo and some guys who don’t even look Chinese, much less like Lee.

    FINISHING THE GAME turns out to be less about Bruce Lee than it is a lampoon of Hollywood in the 1970s, poking fun at the behind-the-scenes farces and the racism—both blatant and subtle—ingrained in the industry. Lin reunites many of his cast from BETTER LUCK TOMORROW (Sung Kang, Roger Fan, Parry Shen) and populates the film with cameos by friends gained along the way, such as Leonardo Nam and Brian Tee (from TOKYO DRIFT), Dustin Nguyen (21 JUMP STREET), MTV’s Suchin Pak, James Franco and even MC Hammer. Telling the story of the struggles faced by Asian American actors of the time, Lin has ingeniously created a vehicle for some of today’s counterparts to showcase their impressive comedic talents.
    If that's not an example of an icon, I don't know what is.

    As for the tai chi hippie, I see that as a permutation of Rex Kwon Do. I think Rex is more universal, an echo of something that happened following the 70's wave in the wake of Enter the Dragon. Remember Hai Karate cologne? There's a classic example of using the icon to market. Just look at this vintage Hai Karate vid (Regis and Bishop? ). But I can't think of a pop media example of a tai chi hippie, so I don't think that one is totally established yet. There's the wholesome tai chi yoga chick, which is a new icon, but I think the yoga far outweighs the tai chi.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

  7. #22
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    Gene, I think you just hit on a great idea for the mag: Wholesome tai-chi yoga chicks! You could feature a different model every month wearing some kinda sporty mid-riff baring outfit and stretching and doing tai-cheeeee.

    Centerfold anyone?

  8. #23
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    If only...

    ...I'm sure they'd get choked out by bald tattooed MMA dudes.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

  9. #24

    First things first.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    ...I'm sure they'd get choked out by bald tattooed MMA dudes.
    ROTFLMAO!
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    But I can't think of a pop media example of a tai chi hippie, so I don't think that one is totally established yet.
    How's about David Carradine/Kwai Chang Caine? I put the two together because I think the character became associated with the man (same thing happens to many actors, including Bruce Lee whom we discussed). Don't think that Kwai Chang Caine is associated with Carradine? Then look at the Yellow Pages commercials lol. Anyway, he is definitely part of the Shaolin Monk iconography but he does seem to reach into the tai chi hippie category. Maybe it's just me, but I get that vibe from him. Ditto for the new (not ten years ago) Steven Seagal.
    Last edited by The Xia; 03-14-2007 at 08:54 PM.

  10. #25
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    I think since late 2000, the flying Chinese swordswomen/men, who float better than astronauts on the space shuttle.

    Few people I encounter anymore (below 30-something) seem too familiar with Bruce Lee other than the done-to-death movie cat-cries. But a lot of people seem to imitate Mr. Miyagi when they want to pretend they know martial arts. In the '70s and '80s if certain morons drove past an Asian on the street they'd yell, "Hey, Bruce!" or do a Bruce Lee cry...or, "Aaah, Grasshoppa!" Now it's, "Hey, Jet Li!" And of course, Ninjas have become a household image.

    Being a media-driven society, people tend to associate martial arts with movies and video games more than, say, the actual Japanese samurai; or the Chinese villagers, military men, and caravan escorters who trained CMA.

    But I really think the new icon is the shaved-headed, tatooed MMA fighter. It seems to have eclipsed boxing in popularity, by far. And watching competitive sports (as a whole) on TV and PPV is going to attract a lot more interest worldwide than training martial arts, IMO, or reading about historical figures. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with it, only what the trend seems to be.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 03-14-2007 at 09:10 PM.

  11. #26
    no body really believes in gravity defying of walking on the walls and flying from roof top to roof top.

    these are exerggerations from Wu xia novels.

    --

    however, the values of Xia and Yi are more important than anything else.

    so Zhang Zi yi has the green cloud sword and yet her journey in the Wu Lin will be shortlived if without Yi and Xin/trust/giving words and keeping the promises etc.

    --

    icons of Wu Dang, Shaolin or even the movies of "crounching tigers and hidden dragons" etc

    they are still about Xia Yi and Xin.

    --


  12. #27
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    This is a reach but I wanted to post this somewhere...

    ...and it sure didn't deserve it's own thread. Way to OT.

    Sooooo, speaking of Britney...
    Kevin Federline ended their marriage, Britney Spears tells Rolling Stone
    By JO PIAZZA
    DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
    Tuesday, November 25th 2008, 1:22 PM

    She's back and she's spilling the beans. No subject seems off-limits for Britney Spears as she begins the publicity tour for her new album "Circus" - not even her nasty split from ex-husband Kevin Federline.

    For the first time since the pop singer filed for divorce in 2006, Britney is finally revealing that it was Kevin, not her, who was responsible for the demise for their marriage.

    "I didn't think my husband was gonna leave me," she says in the latest issue of Rolling Stone magazine as she explains how her life didn't exactly turn out as she had planned.

    And in a new fly-on-the-wall documentary for MTV "Britney: For the Record," airing Sunday night, Britney admits that her marriage to Federline was a mistake.

    "I think I married for all the wrong reasons," Spears says in the teary interview. "Instead of following my heart and, like, doing something that made me really happy ... I just did it because ... for just, like, the idea of everything."

    And she says things started to go south when Kevin started working on his own projects, including a rap album.

    "That's when things got weird," she says.

    But the new and improved Britney, with the help of a militant team of minders headed by her father Jamie Spears, seems to be moving on from that turbulent time in her life. She is even dipping her toes back into the dating pool for the first time since her controversial relationship with paparazzo Adnan Ghalib.

    She has been on at least two dates recently, the singer says in Rolling Stone - both chaperoned by her staff.

    Unfortunately it sounds like both guys struck out on date one.

    The first was what Brit calls a "an older version of Harry Potter, but skinnier."

    It was so bad that the singer ordered dessert first to get the date over with.

    The second date was with a much older guy who was into martial arts.

    "We're trying to ask him questions, like, "Ok, you're into martial arts, so what kind of martial arts are you into?" And he was like, 'Oh, all kinds.' But you know how silly we are, so we were just cracking up," Brit explains to the mag.

    The new, post-breakdown Britney Spears seems to have finally gotten herself together. She looks happy and healthy and even wholesome, posing in jeans and a T-shirt on the mag's cover.

    She admits that now she only sees Federline, who she refers to as "my babies' daddy," when the two are trading off the kids.

    And Britney thinks her sons are picking up bad behavior from her ex. "It's weird cause they're starting to learn words like stupid and Preston says the F-word sometimes," Britney says.

    Even though Britney seems candid in both interviews, both Rolling Stone and MTV have revealed that her father and managers rarely left her alone during the interview process and asked to vet questions beforehand.

    We'll be seeing a lot more of Britney in the next couple of weeks. She is heading to Europe for the weekend to promote her new single "Womanizer." But she will return to the States on Dec. 2 when she will perform on "Good Morning America" on her 27th birthday.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

  13. #28
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    some icons are walking around obsoletely in society... at any moment someone in your local supermarket, bank, gas station, or mall might be a simple ascended master, nonchalantly minding it's own business stirring up an energy flux... smiling the entire time at the chaos of it's passing.

  14. #29
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    Chuck Norris is approaching icon status I reckon.

    Bruce Lee (look at da mOOOOn)

    Kwai Chang Cane (why was he always walking barefoot when he had those shoes hanging from his swag?)

    and perhaps blind "Master Po? (Grasshopper, you are puzzled?)
    or his alter ego, Mister Miagie from Karate Kid?
    Guangzhou Pak Mei Kung Fu School, Sydney Australia,
    Sifu Leung, Yuk Seng
    Established 1989, Glebe Australia

  15. #30
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    Uki is a necromancer.
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

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