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Thread: Shou Shu - real or another made-up melange?

  1. #361

    Re: Re: Re: Not Flaming Or Being A Troll

    Originally posted by anton

    Perhaps I misinterpreted, but I saw Kung Lek's post as giving the definition of "a principle" ... that is if you looked up "fighting principle" in some hypothetical "Kung fu dictionary" you would see something like Kung Lek's post. His post was also in response to your not providing any description of the specific fighting principles of your art. He gave some generic examples, nothing specific to Shou Shu. It still remains for you to answer the people who asked you what some of the principles behind your art are.[/B]
    Anton has leapt upon the correct like a wild mongoose and is worrying its neck unmercifully.
    "hey pal, you wanna do the dance of destruction with the belle of the ball, just say the word." -apoweyn

  2. #362
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Not Flaming Or Being A Troll

    Originally posted by FatherDog


    Anton has leapt upon the correct like a wild mongoose and is worrying its neck unmercifully.
    Yes, but is he doing it with the correct principles according to how a mongoose fights?
    cxxx[]:::::::::::>
    Behold, I see my father and mother.
    I see all my dead relatives seated.
    I see my master seated in Paradise and Paradise is beautiful and green; with him are men and boy servants.
    He calls me. Take me to him.

  3. #363
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Not Flaming Or Being A Troll

    Originally posted by joedoe


    Yes, but is he doing it with the correct principles according to how a mongoose fights?
    No, a mongoose would evade that question. I'm gonna say he attacked it directly with a foward centerline shift like a bear.

  4. #364
    But attacking Center Line leaves one open to misdirection attacks from the mongoose and cobra.
    Fear Makes You Hesitate, Make Fear Your Allie and Make Your Enemy Hesistate!

  5. #365
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Not Flaming Or Being A Troll

    Originally posted by Shou Shu Blue
    But as i read this i feel as though i was just attacked in the verbage of your response. As not being a black belt or teacher in my art i cant give complete information. I can say that what Keng Luk posted is pretty much wide range on the principles of animals in MA.
    I am sorry if you feel you have been attacked, I understand that such feelings may arise as this thread is essentially about people questioning your chosen art (given the history of such threads I must say this one is progressing in a relatively civil manner, and I commend you on your self-control). I haven't questioned the validity of your art thus far, my post was simply directed at what I thought was an inconsistent interpretation on your part. A post directed at "manner" rather than "matter" if you will. Given the above explanation however, I stand corrected - it appears we both share the same view of the meaning and scope of Kung Lek's post.
    Now where does everyone stand regarding fighting principles? I would summarise it in the following way:
    Everyone agrees that animal influences can determine the fighting principles of a martial art. Most people (?) agree that there is quite a wide scope of ways in which a given animal may be interpreted from one system (ie. the "snake style" of one system may be quite different to that of another).

    Those Famous Martial Arts are Famous because alot of the instructors of the arts formed Associations and linked them back to the various contries they came from, as well as commercialized them.
    Well, many of the family styles don't have a large Association in the West. Most first became known within the province where they originated, and later may have spread to the rest of China (a small number became popular in the West in the second half of the 20th century- WC, CLF, HG, etc...). Very few authentic "secret" systems exist. Their opening up has been a gradual process. Most family or clan systems first began to teach "outsiders" within their own villages or provinces, later as students moved around and opened their own schools systems spread throughout China/HK however until at least the 1950's the passing on of this knowledge to non-Chinese was virtually unheard of. This is probably the cause of the suspicion (whether valid or not) in the minds of some people experienced in CMA, when they hear of a system so secret that its name and/or the region in China where it is/was practiced are unknown. This is particularly the case if a system can trace its roots to famous places of origin (Shaolin, Wudan etc) or to influential Triads. Again this is not an attack on you or your style, just an observation and an explanation of the reason for some of the perceived dubiousness of your system's (and others') history, which you may encounter here and elsewhere.
    The eunuch should not take pride in his chastity

  6. #366
    I agree 100%

    Salute
    Fear Makes You Hesitate, Make Fear Your Allie and Make Your Enemy Hesistate!

  7. #367
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    Originally posted by Indestructible
    I think what we have here is a few of us Shou Shu students trying to explain something from our point of view or experience that simply doesn't make sense to someone without a similar background. Its like the auto mechanic trying to explain the inner workings of an engine to an eskimo that mushes a dog sled. They coming from two drastically different backgrounds.
    Not calling anyone an eskimo, just trying to give an analogy thats makes sense.

    I think you've hit the nail on the head. It appears the background of Shou Shu is markedly different to that of the MA's that many people on this board practice.

    There comes a point where words are not adequete and you simply have to see it and experience it to gain a deeper understanding.

    Agreed.

    As far as history of my art is concerned, I don't really see a way to ever prove things one way or another. The best we have is oral history and circumstantial evidence and from prior posts we know how a lot of people feel about that. Bottom line, it works for me and many other people. Good luck to you all.
    Indeed. History has absolutely nothing to do with effectiveness IMHO. If it works for you then keep doin it. ALthough if you ever wish to engage in a debate on the history of your or any other MA, you'll find plenty of willing participants around here .

    Anyway hope this thread has not been too negative an experience for you. As I have said, the level of self-control you and SSB have shown in this thread is unusual for similar threads on this forum - I personally hope you continue to post on these boards as I'm sure you have much that is of value to contribute to MA-related discussions.

    Cheers.
    The eunuch should not take pride in his chastity

  8. #368
    Anton and all who have read or posted on this thread.

    I dont know about Indy but ill continue to post here or other threads as i gain more knowledge and experience. It has though shown me that our art is different from the others. Up until Da' Shifu Sr passed away noone really honestly thought about the history before Him. Until our source of History was gone. He would tell stories all the time from what i hear but noone ever thought hey this is great gotta write it down. Instead it was that is a great piece of history, Da' Shifu could you show me that Mantis again im not quite getting it.

    So many questioned unanswered but yet so many of the black belts have the answers if they compared notes.

    it has been great up to this point i hope it continues.

    Salute,

    Shou Shu Blue
    Fear Makes You Hesitate, Make Fear Your Allie and Make Your Enemy Hesistate!

  9. #369

    I will find out about principles

    Alrighty all i have recieved a little more diffenative info.

    Da Shifu Lou Chin Sponsored Da Shifu Sr to go to china ( of course we have established this already), But when he was accepted they didnt know he was american. He went to Tin Sin (reporters spelling) only thing that looks like that in China is Tianjin Shi (pronunciation is a killer for the english language.) In the first six months he was looked through and over by his fellow students and Teachers. They didnt respect him until after the first honorable combat. Didnt say exactly how he did just that he gained more respect from them. Remember WWII time frame as well as late 40's and 50's era.

    Da Shifu Sr called the style the Manderin Style. he goes on to say that Shou Shu is the ways of the beast. Because it has all seven beasts (animals) it can be called Shou Shu. If a style only has tiger then it is called by that name, or Tiger and Mongoose it would be called by those names. But since Da Shifu Sr had learned all Seven he was able to Call the art Shou Shu.

    I will post more as i get more. www.mooreskarate.com looks like its up and will running in dec this yr.

    Yes i will find out about principles cause i cant remember and i want to know for sure that im saying the correct information.

    Salute,

    Shou Shu Blue
    Fear Makes You Hesitate, Make Fear Your Allie and Make Your Enemy Hesistate!

  10. #370
    Da Shifu Lou Chin Sponsored Da Shifu Sr to go to china ( of course we have established this already), But when he was accepted they didnt know he was american. He went to Tin Sin (reporters spelling) only thing that looks like that in China is Tianjin Shi (pronunciation is a killer for the english language.) In the first six months he was looked through and over by his fellow students and Teachers. They didnt respect him until after the first honorable combat. Didnt say exactly how he did just that he gained more respect from them. Remember WWII time frame as well as late 40's and 50's era.
    I suggest that jean claude van damme play Da shifu and zhang ziyi play his hot chinese love interest. I'll direct.Now, we just have to find out who wrote this script so that we may pay him.
    I will crush my enemies, see them driven before me, then hit their wimminz with a Tony Danza. - Vash

  11. #371
    Still Kenpo!

  12. #372
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    I haven't been following the Shou Shu thing closely, but has any explanation been given yet as to why "Da Shifu" didn't know the original name of the art he chose to learn, or if he did, why he chose to call it "Shou Shu" instead of keeping the original name?
    The eunuch should not take pride in his chastity

  13. #373
    Actually, he knew the original name but there were already plenty of schools teaching Kenpo, so he started calling it "Shou Shu".

  14. #374
    One Shou Shu isnt kenpo.

    two Da Shifu had said the the art couldnt be called shou shu unless the person had all seven beasts. Now Da Shifu Sr has also said that unless the Shifu had all seven he was suppose to call the style by the animal names. if he only new tiger then he called it by that name. if he had tiger and mongoose then he called it by that name.

    He Chose Shou Shu based on having all seven animals. Not everyone he trained with learned all seven. Very few actually did learn all seven. I have to give Cerebus props for his conviction that Shou Shu is Kenpo. I have seen kenpo and have sparred individuals from various schools. Im sorry Shou Shu isnt kenpo. Shou Shu's Movements are tighter and more circular. The one thing they couldnt understand is how my strikes were just as hard off center as they were stable stanced.

    But like we have said before unless you have first hand experience with Shou Shu you wont understand.

    Salute,

    SS Blue
    Fear Makes You Hesitate, Make Fear Your Allie and Make Your Enemy Hesistate!

  15. #375
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    Originally posted by Indestructible
    There are 4 people that we know of who have all four animals and can teach the complete art.
    So were down to 4 animals, maybe tomorrow it will be 1?

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