Shou Shu - real or another made-up melange?

[anton]

Originally posted by Indestructible
I'm only going to say this once and boy do I know EVERYONE is going to get hot, but what the heck.

Shou Shu is the root which most chinese martials arts branch from.

Do you have any proof of that... apart from what the few existing Shou Shu masters (none of whom are even Chinese) tell you?

I can only say that I feel sorry for those who never get the chance to experience it. At most what you have is a fragment of an original art with watered down generic motion used to patch the holes. To bad for you.

That's a misrepresentation of Chinese Martial Arts tradition, even if you do believe that you are the only ones who hold the original Shaolin arts. This attitude is typical of McKwoons... the students are only taught those aspects of CMA tradition that the "styles" founders were able to pick up through books and some limited training experience, and in turn have an even more skewed comprehension of it.

Look in real books.

There is a wealth of information on the net, as usually even rare styles have some link to another style and are often mentioned on more popular styles' sites. But it is true that books tend to contain better information, and are generally better researched. I've read a few CMA books about Shaolin and Wudan arts. Many have links to triads... But I've never heard of DaMo going to Wutang... Also I've never heard of the title "Da Sifu" in any traditional CMA - this is abit funny seeing your purported history represents you as an extremely secretive, traditional style (something which is also inconsistent with the only known masters being white).
But perhaps you could recommend some titles for me to peruse, which would get rid of all my doubts? Any book that isn't written by Dashifu Sr or any of his students that mentions your system would be great!

Our art comes from Da Mo, taught to a few disciples during a thirty year period. This is the time Da Mo traveled the Wu Tang Mountains of northern China after he left the emperor and before he settled down as abbott of the Shaolin Temple.
Good Luck!

Could you cite your source for this info please?

[BentMonk]

Indi I hate to tell you man, but your history is skewed to say the least. I am a SDer and I am WELL aware of the historical descrepencies where GM Sin & Co's. lineage is concerned. If you go to some history books outside of your MA's little circle I'm sure you'll find the same for your art. You say you have, but if that were true you would've known better than to type what you did. If what you do is effective for you, then continue practicing. They could change the name of my kwoon to John & Dave's Whoop Azz Fu, and I'd still train there. The histories of some arts can not be completely proven accurate or false. With that in mind, you should open your mind to the possibility that the info you have been given may not be 100% correct. There is NO record of SD's history outside the SD circle. There has been enough recent discovery at the Fukien temple to suggest that what GM Sin claims about SD COULD be true. In the reading I have done on MA (which is quite a lot) I haven't seen any mention of Shou Shu or the term Da Shifu either. Unfortunately I haven't noticed anything that lends even a shread of credibility to Shou Shu...yet. As a fellow practitioner of a severely bashed art, I want to do some serious research before I form a concrete oppinion. The only advice I can offer you is, don't take the stuff on these boards too seriosly. If we all trained as much as we typed, we'd all be bad azzes by now. Also, don't blindly accept what ANYONE tells you as the absolute truth. Do your own research, and keep an open mind. Too much time has passed, and too much Westerization has taken place for any MA in the States to call itself pure. Shaolin is a marketing term now. The temple itself is seeking to copyright the term. The one thing that makes me believe GM Sin may be on the level is the fact that he is still a welcomed guest at the Hunan and Fukien temples. If he were a total fraud as MANY on this board maintain, I am sure that the Shaolin monks would treat him no differently than any other common tourist. He is NOT treated like a common tourist. If the monks themselves haven't called BS on SD material, then there must be some shred of authenticity to it...maybe not. My instructors are knowledgable MAs who have trained me to defend myself quite well. That is what I asked from them, and that's what I received. It would be nice to have a widely acknowledged lineage. Still, not having one does NOT change the effectiveness of my training. I enjoy good, respectful debate. This particular thread has had more of that than others I've read. Leave the history to the folks who don't train. Train more, type less, have fun, and be happy. Peace.

[Brad]

If you want to search for our history you'll have to do it off the net. Look in real books. Our art comes from Da Mo, taught to a few disciples during a thirty year period. This is the time Da Mo traveled the Wu Tang Mountains of northern China after he left the emperor and before he settled down as abbott of the Shaolin Temple.
Good Luck!

Seen lots of real books... never seen one with that kind of info in it. In fact, the only place I've ever come across Shou Shu's history is on the net, which you just told us not to look at You going to provide sources or do you expect us to scour every bookstore and library in the world trying to figure out what the heck you're talking about?

At most what you have is a fragment of an original art with watered down generic motion used to patch the holes. To bad for you.

Can you(or will you) prove it?

[Vash]

Got a question:

Does Shou Shu work under pressure?

[cerebus]

Oooooh Boy! I hadn't realized how deep the doo doo had gotten on this thread! Yeah, Idestructible, you guys are the ONLY ones learning the "real" thing, whereas those of us whose arts were passed down through a verifiable line of masters and can be traced by many independent sources outside of our own circles are the ones being duped ("Really, it's the REST of the world that's crazy I'M the only sane one!" cries Indestructible as he's carried off in a straitjacket). Wow!

[Vash]

Perhaps if you could site some material, and by that I mean NAME the texts wherein this information could be found, your claims would not go on so challenged.

[BentMonk]

Indi - Vash is right. It's show us don't tell us time. Since you say there is no reference to your history online, please site some books you have read (preferably something written by an unbiased third party, not a Shou Shu teacher or student) if what you've typed is indeed true you should be able to do so easily. I have researched SD everywhere. There are very few shreads of evidence that support GM Sin's lineage claims. There is some, and even that can be contested. It's like I said in my earlier post, I train where I train because of the instructors at that particular SD school. I have decided to leave lineage study to the history buffs who don't train. The one thing that still allows me to have faith in SD is the simple fact that the Shaolin Temple has yet to tell GM Sin to quit calling SD Shaolin. There have been MAs in China and abroad that have recently been told to drop Shaolin from their name by the temple. Maybe they haven't gotten around to us yet, maybe they believe GM Sin. I suppose time will tell. My point to you Indi is that you need to realize what you've been told might not be 100% accurate. You've come into a public forum where in addition to the occasional troll, there are some folks who are VERY knowledgable about the histories in MA. If you're happy w/Shou Shu then keep doing it. If you're going to defend Shou Shu's history, go to the library and make your case. Take it from someone who's done the typing. All of the pseudo-intellectual, and semi-philosophical verbage in the world is not going to convince anyone on this board that Shou Shu's history is accurate. The ONLY way you will do that is to to present some readily verifiable sources that substantiate Shou Shu's claims. I used to defend SD against any troll with a flame thrower. I have since seen the futility of it all. This is not an attack on you or your art. This is just a nickels worth of free advice from someone who's been there, done that. Type less, train more, be happy. Peace

[David Jamieson]

well, what does it matter. Every single style of Kungfu, karate, tkd etc etc, was all made up at some point in time on the supposition that it would work for any number of reasons.

Time and again, each style has been proven inferior to some other style or fighting method. There is no style that cannot be defeated by the appropriate means.

Now, if someone builds a method and a curriculum for a martial arts course, then I say all power to them, they are servicing their fellow humans by creating something that can be useful and enjoyed by all who take the time to learn the method.

Made up mellange, bwahahahahaha, if you go far enough back in time, or even not that far at all in some cases, isn't this the truth of all Kungfu styles? It doesn't matter if it's a patchwork, it matters if it works, if it's effective and if it delivers what it's curriculum promises to.

Granted, colourful and poetic names are part of some asian martial traditions. And sometimes, these things are misinterpreted by both the people reading it and the people writing it. That's more common than not imo. BUt ultimately, that's not so important as teaching alligment in physical structure, position of strength, position of weakness, structure breaking, joint destructions etc etc etc. THat's where the lessons are boys and girls, not in the recitation of animal stories. If a person decides to give these lessons using allegory, then fine, but if all you are hearing is an animal tale (get it ) and not the real meat and potatoes, then you likely aren't listening and you're certainly not willing to do the work to really learn the kungfu.

cheers

[cerebus]

KEM/NPO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BentMonk]

MK - There was a whole thread about the temple telling folks to quit using Shaolin in their name. Both the stuff you mentioned, and some schools. It was somewhere on this board, not in the Gen. Discussion area though. I think the original info was from Variety magazine or some such.

[MasterKiller]

BM,
Here is the thread:
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...hlight=Variety

In Gene's piece on Abbot Yongxin, he said this about the trademarking, but doesn't mention any schools being affected.

GC: How is trademarking the name of Shaolin going?
Abbot: Recently, some businessmen and companies had been engaging in using the Shaolin name to further their product. This influenced the image of Shaolin culture in a negative way. Now Shaolin Temple is attending to this matter. Abuse of the Shaolin trademark will diminish the influence of Shaolin Temple and create misunderstandings of Shaolin in the public eye. Shaolin represents the best of traditional Chinese art in kung fu and Chan Buddhism. As we know, some products and services provided by these companies were outlawed by the rules of Buddhism. So we have begun to administrate the trademark of Shaolin, not for the sake of profit, just for the sake of preserving our culture and religion.

I'm pretty sure the trademarking is an issue with companies and film crews making a profit/denegrating the name, not with schools teaching false or suspect styles. In the aforementioned thread, Gene said:

When I spoke to Abbot Yongxin, UNESCO status was at the top of his agenda. He didn't really comment on it's connection to trademarking so much to me. I got the implication that trademarking was more focused on private non-martial business - he kept coming back to the Shaolin sausage case. That was really the precedent. I tried to egg him on to discussing any connection with 'fake' monk tours, but that took our discussion into a totally different realm.

[Royal Dragon]

ttt

[Shou Shu Blue]

I never thought i would return.

Salute,


Cerebus- I figured by now you preschool teacher would have taught you a different word besides Kem/npo, Have they allowed you to play outside with out the helmet on yet?? LOL had to do it been to long since you last flamed me.

let me see if i can not help at all. It has already been posted from previous parts of this thread.

One Shou Shu is the name our Da' Shifu gave the art in manderin is means Way of the Beast. to add fighting would add another charactor. It is not the name of what he was taught in China. He was taught 7 animals which are Xiong, Hu, You, BaHe, Tang, Fu, Long. There were only 5 individuals including Da' Shifu Moore Sr that graduated from the school that learned all 7 animals. He then named the style Shou Shu. Hence Moores Shou Shu. It has become a family art, the entire art is not taught to the public.

look for the Animal Chuan in buddhist history. might be the beast chuan i was told it is in their artwork.

If you look around at certain arts named after animals you will see the names i mentioned above.

if a student did not learn all 7 animals he only called it what he was taught. Just as any art from china that was a family art unless the family accepted you as one of their own you werent taught their art.

Some animals taught to Da' Shifu are not taught by other styles because of that styles master probably didnt see the practicality of it being taught or they didnt learn it. If a style didnt have the whole animal then it would have to draw from a different style to fill in the gaps.

Shou Shu is effective under pressure.

we are taught techs as a learning base, as our lessons progress we are encouraged to do reaction drills and mix our strikes while sparring. in turn its not the techniques we pay attention to in a fighting situation but the strikes we are taught from those techniques.


Salute,

SS Blue

[Ralphie]

From that forum (Showumyshoe):

I've been following this site for just over a year as it has been built; I'm glad to see a forum finally posted. I think that everyone should realize that there is another, unpleasant side to this art. I studied for many years in Sacramento under Shun Shifu Bottimore and stopped about a year after I got my Bears.

Bottimore was, and I imagine still is, a very nice guy. He taught the art for a long, long time until he and Da Shifu Sr. had a falling out...then suddenly, overnight, everything Bottimore taught was crap. Needless to say, I got fed up with all of the "this is crap, that is crap" comments and never looked back (along with about 6 other black belts).

Once I left, I began to look back on my experience in the art and I realized that all it really did was train me to be an arrogant jerk. Why any system would teach that it was "cool" to drop a knee into someone's chest as you side fist their face and "finish" with a heel rake across their chin is beyond reason. I can't count the number of people on both hands that began to go out looking for fights after they got started in the art...and they did it because it was taught that fighting was somehow a good thing...and that is taught from Da Shifu on down.

Look at the evil lord.; he is the biggest tallywhacker I have ever come across in my LIFE!!! I've never seen anyone so insecure...all the stupid friggin stories about kicking the crap out of someone because they looked at him wrong, or flirted with his girlfriend. The man can't reason his way out of a paper bag. A black belt in Shou Shu doesn't mean you're an expert in anything in life other than Shou Shu. I used to see him intimidate people that had a different opinion ALL the time, just because he had a higher rank in a martial art that does less to help the world than a local food shelter.

By all means, train in the art...it's a great form of self defense. A great way to maim some homeless guy, desperate enough to confront you, that really just needed a meal or a warm coat. But just remember that you are not in any way, shape or form invincible. I know MANY people above brown that got the crap beat out of them by others that wrestle, box, and are just plain tough. No art in the world is going to save you from some kid with a gun that cares more about an Xbox than your life. Whether you're a Da Shifu or not...you're dead, end of story. If someone tells you otherwise, their lying.

[MasterKiller]

The rank of Shi Gong is acheived by being a Da' Shifu who succesfully passes his art down and creates a new Da' Shifu.

Shi Gong Chen was his teacher's title? Maybe Shi Guang, as in 14th generation Shaolin monk???