knife vrs multiple attackers

[Black Jack II]

Good video on how a knife can be used to turn the tide on multiple assailants when one has forward aggression and resolve. In the end the attacker is brought down with a firearm but it showcases him managing to use his pivotal seconds effectively with the pre-emptive strike.

From a civilan point of view and a little creativity in changing the situational context I think people can see the merit and hopefully get a good discussion out of it.

What is bizzare is the horrible cop training these guys have. The attacker has a ten inch bowie knife, held in pikal/reverse grip, and they don't shoot him during the first rush.

http://www.nothingtoxic.com/media/11...h_a_Huge_Knife

[Oso]

yea, he should have been shot the first time the knife was pointed or raised over his head towards an officer.

in the US they are starting to implement other things besides tasers and gas to stop people like this w/o killing them...though, it's certainly debatable whether someone like this has not foresworn any 'civil' rights.

beyond the correct assertion that forward aggression and pre-emptive striking is a good way to 'work a crowd', the tape is too jumpy to talk about his technique.

but, yea, knives are scary and unless someone trains for it, as these cops obviously didn't, you can hold people off by fear alone.

[Black Jack II]

but, yea, knives are scary and unless someone trains for it, as these cops obviously didn't, you can hold people off by fear alone

From a knife defense perspective the tape has merit as well. As anyone can notice it does not showcase the mediocore attacks people sometimes are treated to in a dojo style setting.

Here its not really about technique but the full out intention to harm anyone he can get his hands on. To me that blows away any real technique by a mile.

[Oso]

agreed.

i've stopped teaching knife defense simply because I have yet to have a student who would be willing to train it as needed to really even come close to being able to mitigate a situation.


and, yea, for whatever reason those cops were trying to 'wrangle' him down...stupid. there were what? 5-6 cops? one with a long arm? at most only one of them should have approached him while the others stood off, especially the long arm. at the first sign of attack, the negotiator retreats and the others fire.

[David Jamieson]

He should have been shot almost immediately. Not lethally, but shot nevertheless.

[LeeCasebolt]

He should have been shot almost immediately. Not lethally, but shot nevertheless.

A non-lethal shooting is almost always an accident. The firearm is not a wounding weapon. Nor should it be.

[Oso]

beat me to it...westerns and cop shows are almost as bad as kung fu flicks for promoting bad ideas.


use a weapon to it's fullest extent.

I think the newer attempts at non lethal methods are good...used at their fullest extent they are theoretically non-lethal and incapaciating. you don't have to think about moderating your use with them.

just as if you decide to pull the trigger you should not be having to think about moderating how you use it.

it could be that the cops were operating under a specific protocol to wait or attempt to negotiate as much as possible. cops in the US certainly are coming under fire for overuse of force. though I don't think anyone would criticize this situation as too much force.

[David Jamieson]

most gun shot wounds are not lethal.

anyway, he should've been shot.

[Black Jack II]

most gun shot wounds are not lethal

It's hard to state this unless you put that phrase into a specific context of projectile wounding.

As martial artists you know that the human target is a complex and durable creature with a very wide variety of psychological and physical factors existing at the same time, all of them pertinent to the probability of incapacitation. Physiologically, a determined adversary according to FBI projectile wound studies can be stopped reliably and immediately only by a shot that disrupts the brain or upper spinal cord.

Failing a hit to the central nervous system, massive bleeding from holes in the heart or major blood vessels of the torso causing circulatory collapse is the only other way to force incapacitation on a determined attacker and this may take time, an example being that there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full action for 10 to 15 seconds after the heart has been destoryed.

In order to predict the likelihood of incapacitation with any handgun round, an understanding of certain mechanics of wounding is helpfull. They are penetration, permanent cavity, temporary cavity, and fragmentation.

But in a way you are right, just like everything else the gun has its own mythos of what it can and can not do, most of it brought on by movies and such. Barring a central nervous system hit, the FBI and Police labs showcase that there is often no physiological reason for an individual to be incapacitated by even a fatal wound, until blood loss is sufficient to drop blood pressure and/or the brain is deprived of oxygen. The effects of pain, which could contribute greatly to incapacitation, are commonly delayed in the aftermath of serious injury such as a gunshot wound. The body engages survival patterns, the well known "fight or flight" syndrome.

Either way though, used in the right context and the proper situation, I don't believe there is a better physical tool to use in self defense than a firearm. The statement that Abe Lincoln may have freed all men, but Sam Colt made them equal does carry weight in this regard.

[cjurakpt]

wow

could the cops have been more disorganised? no clear command structure, no clear plan of action, and they weren't even functioning as a unit - just all spread out randomly with no support structure - like while one of them was getting slashed, none of the others were anywhere near to assist...I mean, I think that even I could have come up with a better way of dealing with that scenario...

and 3 of them got stabbed? why didn't they drop the guy after the first officer got cut? and the way they ran away from him, backpeddling, tripping over themselves - scary...

[xcakid]

It's hard to state this unless you put that phrase into a specific context of projectile wounding.

As martial artists you know that the human target is a complex and durable creature with a very wide variety of psychological and physical factors existing at the same time, all of them pertinent to the probability of incapacitation. Physiologically, a determined adversary according to FBI projectile wound studies can be stopped reliably and immediately only by a shot that disrupts the brain or upper spinal cord.

Failing a hit to the central nervous system, massive bleeding from holes in the heart or major blood vessels of the torso causing circulatory collapse is the only other way to force incapacitation on a determined attacker and this may take time, an example being that there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full action for 10 to 15 seconds after the heart has been destoryed.

In order to predict the likelihood of incapacitation with any handgun round, an understanding of certain mechanics of wounding is helpfull. They are penetration, permanent cavity, temporary cavity, and fragmentation.

But in a way you are right, just like everything else the gun has its own mythos of what it can and can not do, most of it brought on by movies and such. Barring a central nervous system hit, the FBI and Police labs showcase that there is often no physiological reason for an individual to be incapacitated by even a fatal wound, until blood loss is sufficient to drop blood pressure and/or the brain is deprived of oxygen. The effects of pain, which could contribute greatly to incapacitation, are commonly delayed in the aftermath of serious injury such as a gunshot wound. The body engages survival patterns, the well known "fight or flight" syndrome.

Either way though, used in the right context and the proper situation, I don't believe there is a better physical tool to use in self defense than a firearm. The statement that Abe Lincoln may have freed all men, but Sam Colt made them equal does carry weight in this regard.

There's been a lot of research done regarding small caliber rounds. IE .22, .38 and 9MM Which are commonly carried by LEO's. The body tend to swell over the hole to stop the bleeding. This is just a natural human defense against being wounded. This is one of the reasons the FBI and the CA Highway Patrol went with a larger and heavier .40cal. As well as some officers that know about ballistics carry either a 10MM, .40 or a .45. Far better penetration, bigger punch and the body tend to only partially swell over the hole.

Fragmentation is really the key here. Fragmentation has a better chance is hitting vital organs and rupturing arteries. It also prevents over penetration. In that video the cop were in a circle. Not an ideal configuration when shooting occurs. Round can miss and hit the officer opposite you or it can over penetrate and hit officers opposite you. Poor training on the cops part indeed. They also lacked cover, showing that they under estimited the threat, again poor training. And what happened to their billy clubs or something similar, guess they don't carry them in Ecuador or whatever country that was? These guys also did not follow the rule of knife fighting. They let the assailant close quickly without weapon drawn. There was one office with a rifle and he was holding it like a stick.

We can use hindsight and critique them all we want. But it stands that these guys made a bad decision. Doesn't look like they were very well trained and officers suffered for it.

[Black Jack II]

It looks like there is no training there at all, but who knows what extra context is hidden outside of the video footage. What is nice about this video on the blade defense side is it shows that if the attacker drives aggressively forward, using a bulldog style rush, you can see how any fancy redirects may not work that well.