Leg mechanics

[t_niehoff]

Hendrik, why not answer my question?

The fact remains that Sum Nung taught to clamp the knees and turn the feet in in the SLT. So is this not the "traditional way" of performing the SLT? Why did he do this? Answer that. Why not just throw that out of the SLT if it wasn't "correct"?

And, whether Robert believes in chi or not does not make it real/true.

Did the ancient chinese have a true grasp of anatomy or physiology? No. Did they understand biomechanics? No. Did they understand how the nervous system really functions (about synapses, mylenin, etc.)? No. Or even about how diet effects atheltic performance? No. In terms of medicine, did they understand how the metabolism really works (like with energy production), about infectious disease, etc.? No. They were ignorant of all these things. They were ignorant of how the human body really works, and how to achieve athletic excellence. And this is why the Chinese government today, in training its athletes doesn't follow the ancient pardigm, but follows the modern one -- as that is the only way to compete with today's athletes. Only in the TCMAs do people still follow that nonsense as training. And they get away with it because they do not compete with other athletes (as they are theoretical nonfighters) -- since that model produces such poor results. You've yet to name a single person today who has used that model to achieve good fighting skill. Your silence reveals all. So you can't provide one iota of evidence -- in the example of a single person who practices the way you preach who has developed any significant skills.

But you keep harping on how this was the "traditional way" founded in TCM. Yet, in this, you are not even correct! Sum Nung, who was as traditional as they come and a physician in TCM, and Yip Man both practiced the SLT with clamped knees and inwardly rotated feet. Hell, in Yip's SLT his weight isn't even on K1!! So where are the traditional guys who practiced the SLT the way you say it should be done and is "traditional"? The only person you can point to is "Grandmaster Fu" who isn't a WCK practitioner!

So what we have is you saying practice the SLT your way and it will produce results -- even though you can't point to a single person that it has worked for, and you support your claim by saying it was the "traditional way" yet all the traditional guys don't practice the SLT the way you say to. You are living in a fantasy world of your own.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, why not answer my question? ---------


I have answer your question and more.

But I could not do comprehension for you.
similar to I could give you food but I could not eat for you.

You could always think there is no such thing as Tofu and no one could intelectually tell you what Tofu is unless you have eat it.






The fact remains that Sum Nung taught to clamp the knees and turn the feet in in the SLT. So is this not the "traditional way" of performing the SLT? Why did he do this? Answer that. Why not just throw that out of the SLT if it wasn't "correct"? --------



ARe you from the lineage of YKS?

do you have the first hand infomation such as Rene has or Rene's sifu has and the indepth traditional /classical Chinese Martial art training?

if not both the above what to discuss?

BTW, Eating to much rice will kill one. So, is it reating rice wasnt "correct'?


If I were you, mind my own business is a better deal then always argue about something one has no idea about. Atleast that save energy.







And, whether Robert believes in chi or not does not make it real/true. ----------



Robert is practicing using Chi to heal and cure and help his patients.

So, is it a believe or it is a practice? until you got that clear, you could know what is real or not.







Did the ancient chinese have a true grasp of anatomy or physiology? No.
Did they understand biomechanics? No. Did they understand how the nervous system really functions (about synapses, mylenin, etc.)? No. Or even about how diet effects atheltic performance? No. In terms of medicine, did they understand how the metabolism really works (like with energy production), about infectious disease, etc.? No. They were ignorant of all these things. They were ignorant of how the human body really works, and how to achieve athletic excellence. --------


Does Terence knows everying about WCK? Yes.
Does Terence is a Omni GOD? Yes.
Does Terence know everything about CHinese mind set? Yes.

Ha ha ha

How ridiculus and childist are the above statements isnt it?






And this is why the Chinese government today, in training its athletes doesn't follow the ancient pardigm, but follows the modern one -- as that is the only way to compete with today's athletes. -------


Sure, the government switch to Communism and trying to destroy the chinese culture with Culture Revolution too.

Does that make the government right?






Only in the TCMAs do people still follow that nonsense as training. ------




if you believe in that, tell that to your sifu Robert.

I propose you might as well as STOP claming you are Robert's student.
For the above statement disgrace Robert, Hawkin, and GM YIp Man.


If you even have respect to any of them you wont make the above statement.




I know Robert and I know his art and I know his loyalty and respect to his sifu, Sigung, and the Traditional methods of training, Not to say Robert and me think all traditional is right ; however it is certainly not making such claim as you make.



Thus, I would like to propose, if you no longer train in WCK, leave this forum,

if you still think Robert is your ex sifu. Stop posting nonsense which will lead others to mis-understand Robert and create problem for Robert among others and other lineages.


I must said this. Stop to be a trouble creator for Robert.




This will be the last post I would answer you. You walk your path, I walk mine. you are a MMA person comes to this forum trying to down play WCK for whatever reason which I dont care.

And, I am not going to spend one second more.


Peace and so long.

[t_niehoff]

Hendrik, why not answer my question? ---------


I have answer your question and more.

No, you still avoid ansering the question. Why do all the traditional guys clamp the knees and rotate the feet inward?

You could always think there is no such thing as Tofu and no one could intelectually tell you what Tofu is unless you have eat it.

But anyone could show me tofu -- I don't have to eat it. You claim your methods are traditional but they are not. You claim they produce results but can't provide any evidence of anyone who uses them that has developed good fighting skills.

The fact remains that Sum Nung taught to clamp the knees and turn the feet in in the SLT. So is this not the "traditional way" of performing the SLT? Why did he do this? Answer that. Why not just throw that out of the SLT if it wasn't "correct"? --------

ARe you from the lineage of YKS?

do you have the first hand infomation such as Rene has or Rene's sifu has and the indepth traditional /classical Chinese Martial art training?

if not both the above what to discuss?

Why do I need to be from YKS lineage -- isn't this WCK? You - Hendrik - says that to clamp the knees and roate the feet inward is not correct, yet this is what all the traditional guys do.

If I were you, mind my own business is a better deal then always argue about something one has no idea about. Atleast that save energy.

This is a forum for views. You give your views, I'll give mine. If you say something produces results, I'll ask for evidence. If you say something is traditional, I'll ask for who did it that way.

And, whether Robert believes in chi or not does not make it real/true. ----------

Robert is practicing using Chi to heal and cure and help his patients.

So, is it a believe or it is a practice? until you got that clear, you could know what is real or not.

The practice and the explanation are two different things. Even if the practice has benefits, that doesn't make the explanation for that practice valid. Accupuncture may work, but that doesn't prove that qi exists. Qi is just the "best" explanation that they had at the time. We know more today. Just as the bark of some tree may be a remedy but the explanation is that it is the blessing of the wood nympth does not prove wood nympths exist.

Does Terence knows everying about WCK? Yes.
Does Terence is a Omni GOD? Yes.
Does Terence know everything about CHinese mind set? Yes.

Ha ha ha

How ridiculus and childist are the above statements isnt it?

I don't claim to know everything --but I do recognize BS when I hear it.

And this is why the Chinese government today, in training its athletes doesn't follow the ancient pardigm, but follows the modern one -- as that is the only way to compete with today's athletes. -------


Sure, the government switch to Communism and trying to destroy the chinese culture with Culture Revolution too.

Does that make the government right?

I think this reveals your real agenda -- cultural rpeservation. The chinese government, like any government, or any athlete for that matter, will use whatever works best to develop their athletes. They won't throw away some great way of trianing, something that would give them an edge, for the sake of destroying culture. Your view just doesn't hold water.

Only in the TCMAs do people still follow that nonsense as training. ------

if you believe in that, tell that to your sifu Robert.

I propose you might as well as STOP claming you are Robert's student.
For the above statement disgrace Robert, Hawkin, and GM YIp Man.


If you even have respect to any of them you wont make the above statement.

The fact that the world is round and not flat has nothing to do with respecting anyone, just as saying certain training methods aren't very effecitve has nothing to do with respecting anyone. Robert is my sifu -- that fact remains. I have told Robert that TCMAs are 90% nonsense. He knows how I feel. The mere fact that no one who follows that training can fight worth a **** proves it.

I know Robert and I know his art and I know his loyalty and respect to his sifu, Sigung, and the Traditional methods of training, Not to say Robert and me think all traditional is right ; however it is certainly not making such claim as you make.

You should not speak for Robert. Your crazy views are your own.

Thus, I would like to propose, if you no longer train in WCK, leave this forum,

I do practice WCK; you don't. For you WCK is a belief system; for me it is a martial art. I'll be visiting Robert in June, 2008 -- come see for yourself.

if you still think Robert is your ex sifu. Stop posting nonsense which will lead others to mis-understand Robert and create problem for Robert among others and other lineages.

I make it very clear that I speak for myself only -- unlike you who keeps trying to bring in others to support your crazy views. And, Robert surely doesn't need my help in creating problems with other lineages!

I must said this. Stop to be a trouble creator for Robert.

I am creating no problems for Robert; all my opinions are my own. Just like my WCK is my own. Robert helped me to make *my* WCK functional, and for that I will always be grateful. We only make problems for others when we speak for others. You might want to consider that.

This will be the last post I would answer you. You walk your path, I walk mine. you are a MMA person comes to this forum trying to down play WCK for whatever reason which I dont care.

And, I am not going to spend one second more.


Peace and so long.

I am first and foremost a WCK practitioner, and I practice WCK as a martial art. On this forum, I talk about WCK. If you have proof that your way of training produces significant gains in fighitng skills, then provide the evidence. You can't because it doesn't work. If you say your way of performing the SLT is traditional, then explain why no one performs it as you do. You can't. All you have are empty words, and no evidence to back any of them up. Your views have no substance behind them. Of course you don't want to discuss things with me -- because I ask for evidence (of which you have none) and don't defer to your "status" (which in my view is that of just another theoretical nonfighter).

[Hendrik]

No, you still avoid ansering the question. Why do all the traditional guys clamp the knees and rotate the feet inward?



But anyone could show me tofu -- I don't have to eat it. You claim your methods are traditional but they are not. You claim they produce results but can't provide any evidence of anyone who uses them that has developed good fighting skills.



Why do I need to be from YKS lineage -- isn't this WCK? You - Hendrik - says that to clamp the knees and roate the feet inward is not correct, yet this is what all the traditional guys do.



This is a forum for views. You give your views, I'll give mine. If you say something produces results, I'll ask for evidence. If you say something is traditional, I'll ask for who did it that way.



The practice and the explanation are two different things. Even if the practice has benefits, that doesn't make the explanation for that practice valid. Accupuncture may work, but that doesn't prove that qi exists. Qi is just the "best" explanation that they had at the time. We know more today. Just as the bark of some tree may be a remedy but the explanation is that it is the blessing of the wood nympth does not prove wood nympths exist.



I don't claim to know everything --but I do recognize BS when I hear it.



I think this reveals your real agenda -- cultural rpeservation. The chinese government, like any government, or any athlete for that matter, will use whatever works best to develop their athletes. They won't throw away some great way of trianing, something that would give them an edge, for the sake of destroying culture. Your view just doesn't hold water.



The fact that the world is round and not flat has nothing to do with respecting anyone, just as saying certain training methods aren't very effecitve has nothing to do with respecting anyone. Robert is my sifu -- that fact remains. I have told Robert that TCMAs are 90% nonsense. He knows how I feel. The mere fact that no one who follows that training can fight worth a **** proves it.




You should not speak for Robert. Your crazy views are your own.



I do practice WCK; you don't. For you WCK is a belief system; for me it is a martial art. I'll be visiting Robert in June, 2008 -- come see for yourself.



I make it very clear that I speak for myself only -- unlike you who keeps trying to bring in others to support your crazy views. And, Robert surely doesn't need my help in creating problems with other lineages!



I am creating no problems for Robert; all my opinions are my own. Just like my WCK is my own. Robert helped me to make *my* WCK functional, and for that I will always be grateful. We only make problems for others when we speak for others. You might want to consider that.



I am first and foremost a WCK practitioner, and I practice WCK as a martial art. On this forum, I talk about WCK. If you have proof that your way of training produces significant gains in fighitng skills, then provide the evidence. You can't because it doesn't work. If you say your way of performing the SLT is traditional, then explain why no one performs it as you do. You can't. All you have are empty words, and no evidence to back any of them up. Your views have no substance behind them. Of course you don't want to discuss things with me -- because I ask for evidence (of which you have none) and don't defer to your "status" (which in my view is that of just another theoretical nonfighter).

1,

Excellent that you told the world who you are via your view.

As for you assumption about me, you dont know me and we have never met. So, feel free to speculate or twisting words.




2,
as for this meeting or that meeting in 2008 which you keep bring it up.

I have post a few weeks back for 3 times and more repeatly both in WCK.Com and KFO.com to asking you to visit california anytime soon if you are serious.

with your mid 2008 response,
Any serious business man knows what it is means to drag a meeting schedule for more then one year.

So, here on I address to the public that my offer for you is termninated today.
here on , Thanks but no thanks. No time for you.




Best Wishes on your path

[t_niehoff]

1,

Excellent that you told the world who you are via your view.

As for you assumption about me, you dont know me and we have never met. So, feel free to speculate or twisting words.

I am not speculating or twisting your words -- I am saying that you have presented no evidence to support any of your claims, that your way of training produces any significant gains in fighting (WCK) skill or that your way of performing SLT is traditional. You can refute me my providing the eivdence. If the evidence exists that should be an easy thing to do.

2,
as for this meeting or that meeting in 2008 which you keep bring it up.

I have post a few weeks back for 3 times and more repeatly both in WCK.Com and KFO.com to asking you to visit california anytime soon if you are serious.

with your mid 2008 response,
Any serious business man knows what it is means to drag a meeting schedule for more then one year.

I don't care what you post on wck.com -- we are having the discussion here on this forum; I'm sorry but I don't go searching the 'net for your replies. I am going to be in LA in June, 2008, since this is when Alan (from the UK) is going to be visiting Robert and he asked me to come then. As I want to meet with both he and Robert, I've set aside that time (I can kill two birds with one trip). I also hope to meet with Andrew, Dave, and some others then too (maybe even some of the HFY boys). This gives you plenty of time to make arrangements. My schedule is very demanding, and I need to plan far in advance. But, of course, you are always welcome to visit me (just give me advance notice). Or, just do yourself a very great favor, and go down to your local MMA gym and mix it up with some good people; see for yourself whether or not your views have any validity.

So, here on I address to the public that my offer for you is termninated today.
here on , Thanks but no thanks. No time for you.

Hendrik, I am not interested in anything you offer. And I'm not saying that to be mean or nasty -- just that I'm interested in WCK as a martial art, and I'm not going to get anything from someone who doesn't practice it as a martial art (excepts loads of theory). I'm interested in results that I can see.

[Hendrik]

Terence,

We are not in the same wave lenght and thus there is no need for any draining of energy.

Perhaps somedays our path will meet perhaps we will never meet.

However, never or less, I have nothing against you.


Best Wishes for your journey with love.

[t_niehoff]

And Hendrik, I have nothing personal against you -- I just don't accept anything on faith or theory. I question everything and I demand proof of claims. This includes constantly questioning myself and the things I do. The more I fight with WCK, the more my perception of WCK changes, as does my training. I am constantly evolving. If someone, anyone, can show me a better way, I will take and use it because what I am after is results, better performance with WCK. But -- and this is the big "but" -- they gotta really show those results.

You are, my friend, locked into a view that does not come from genuine experience using your WCK (fighting) but from a belief system (how you believe it should work). And because it is a belief system, and is not proved in or dependent upon reality (the fight), no one will ever be able to change your mind. It takes real courage to question your beloved views and put them to the test, to be willing to admit they are wrong if they don't produce results, to put your self-image of being sifu or inheritor or whatever aside -- but that is what it takes for real self-develoment, for real improvement in WCK.

[stricker]

ignoring squabbles and how far off topic from andrewS input this is but...

Did the ancient chinese have a true grasp of anatomy or physiology? No. Did they understand biomechanics? No. Did they understand how the nervous system really functions (about synapses, mylenin, etc.)? No. Or even about how diet effects atheltic performance? No. In terms of medicine, did they understand how the metabolism really works (like with energy production), about infectious disease, etc.? No. They were ignorant of all these things. They were ignorant of how the human body really works, and how to achieve athletic excellence.

i almost cant believe your saying that. they must have known something to have come up with wing chun in the first place...

[t_niehoff]

ignoring squabbles and how far off topic from andrewS input this is but...

i almost cant believe your saying that. they must have known something to have come up with wing chun in the first place...

The japanese came up with jiujitsu (as a fighting method) too, that doesn't mean it was technically perfect or that their training methods were optimal. While it's technical basis remains, it has evolved quite a bit over time (Kano and then with BJJ). Those people still doing traditional JJJ haven't been able to compete successfully in a hundred years. People still keep doing it the old ways though. And you never see them at grappling events.

In the west, people came up with boxing, and it too has continued to evolve over time.

All viable fighitng methods have continued to evolve, and must continue, or else die.

Our ancestors certainly knew "something" but they also did not know a great deal. We have learned a lot more about how the body really works, how to better train athletes, how people learn better, what things work better in fighting, etc. Of course, we can ignore all that, believe that the old "masters" knew so much more that we today, that the legends are true, etc. and remain like the traditional JJJ guys, stuck in time.

How can we know whether some tradtional thing is viable today or not? Simple, it has to be justified by results. If the old guys were right, then it will work today in fighting good fighters.

[Knifefighter]

Terrence-

As someone who regularly applies his WC in full contact settings, how would you say your WC techniques and tactics differ from the one's that might be seen used MMA fights?

And how might they differ from what the theoretical non-fighters espouse WC should be?

[anerlich]

The fact remains that Sum Nung taught to clamp the knees and turn the feet in in the SLT. So is this not the "traditional way" of performing the SLT?

William Cheung (big T traditional WC) doesn't stand like that. Nor, IIRC, do HFY.

[t_niehoff]

William Cheung (big T traditional WC) doesn't stand like that. Nor, IIRC, do HFY.

No argument from me. Hendrik likes to point to certain people, like Sum and Yip, as examples of how the SLT should be practiced -- I was merely pointing out that even they didn't praactice the SLT as he advocates. FWIW, I doubt anyone ever did.

[t_niehoff]

Terrence-

As someone who regularly applies his WC in full contact settings, how would you say your WC techniques and tactics differ from the one's that might be seen used MMA fights?

And how might they differ from what the theoretical non-fighters espouse WC should be?

For me, WCK is essentially a fluid clinch fighting method (attached fighting but not body-locked) -- a form of dirty boxing, as it were. As such, it tends to be more stand-up grappling oriented with strikes thrown in. I don't think WCK is particularly effective on the outside (stand-up, free movement), and it doesn't offer much on the ground. WCK used in fighting will look like MMA/NHB since anything used in fighting will look like MMA/NHB.

[Knifefighter]

For me, WCK is essentially a fluid clinch fighting method (attached fighting but not body-locked) -- a form of dirty boxing, as it were. As such, it tends to be more stand-up grappling oriented with strikes thrown in. I don't think WCK is particularly effective on the outside (stand-up, free movement), and it doesn't offer much on the ground. WCK used in fighting will look like MMA/NHB since anything used in fighting will look like MMA/NHB.

Do you do any specific WCK training that would be different than what might be done in MMA/NHB/boxing/MT training?

[t_niehoff]

Do you do any specific WCK training that would be different than what might be done in MMA/NHB/boxing/MT training?

In my view, the "sportfighters" have developed the best way (so far) to train, so we have adopted their training model to WCK. The core of our training regimen is realistic sparring or situational (focusing on a slice of the fight) sparring using, of course, WCK tools. But I do use the classical WCK drills to teach. Once, however, the tools are learned and can be comfortably performed, they get put into sparring. (I should point out that the classical drills do not IME represent application -- how the tool will work in reality -- only that they permit repetition of the movement in an unrealistic environment).