Weight lifitng makes your joints weak!!

[Royal Dragon]

I'm glad you made the comment about weight training on the net. If you Google strength training you can find quite a few sites with great information on weight training for strength. I'd also google Pavel, and Kettle bells too.

This is a subject every martial artist should be well researched in. Especially since many schools do not teach the weight and strength training methods of thier systems. We really have to fill that hole ourselves by looking at the physical demands we are required to perform, and the various strength development methods avaliable to us that would work to fill the gap.

[Fu-Pow]

The problem with lifting weights for internal martial arts is that it creates incontinuities in the body's musculo-skeletal system. That means some muscles get short/tense and some get elongated/stretchted as a result. Its not weightlifting per se but any exercises that has discontinous tension.

If you look at the human body, its not the muscles alone that hold it upright. The body is a big biotensegrity structure. There must be tonus in the muscles but the tonus must be continuous throughout the structure to maintain the tensegrity.

The bones, water and connective tissue are the compressive elements in the tension network and the muscles are the tension elements. So you have a balance of forces pulling in and down (muscles) and up and out (connective tissue, water, bones). If you start introducing extra tension in a certain point in the network you start messing up the balance.

I think doing whole body exercises can be helpful though and if done with the right intention and structure. For example, I do Hindu pushups and Turkish get-ups. Those involve the whole body and you can distribute the tension across the body.

Here's a picture on this cover of a xing yi guy doing what look like Hindu pushups:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0865...40#reader-link

Just the perspective of a future science journalist who happens to study Taiji.

FP

[Royal Dragon]

If you are an internal artists, then you need to devise a weight lifting system that loads your internal mechanics and works the whole body in unison. Then you don't have those issues.

The bones, water and connective tissue are the compressive elements in the tension network and the muscles are the tension elements. So you have a balance of forces pulling in and down (muscles) and up and out (connective tissue, water, bones). If you start introducing extra tension in a certain point in the network you start messing up the balance.

Reply]
I am not even sure what you are saying here. Muscles contract, that is all they do. Connective tissue, water and bones do not create anything let alone up and out movements. They just connect stuff, or support the surrounding tissues that rest on them. Water is just wet, and doesn't do anything in relation to movement.

[Fu-Pow]

If you are an internal artists, then you need to devise a weight lifting system that loads your internal mechanics and works the whole body in unison. Then you don't have those issues.

The bones, water and connective tissue are the compressive elements in the tension network and the muscles are the tension elements. So you have a balance of forces pulling in and down (muscles) and up and out (connective tissue, water, bones). If you start introducing extra tension in a certain point in the network you start messing up the balance.

Reply]
I am not even sure what you are saying here. Muscles contract, that is all they do. Connective tissue, water and bones do not create anything let alone up and out movements. They just connect stuff, or support the surrounding tissues that rest on them. Water is just wet, and doesn't do anything in relation to movement.

It's not up and out movements, its the opposite force that the weight of your body generates in the field of gravity. It travels up through your CTS, water, bones. Your muscles provide the tension the holds the whole thing together.

FP

[Royal Dragon]

Ah, i got it now. It just the way you worded it before made no sense to me. Thanks for the clarification.

[Knifefighter]

It's not up and out movements, its the opposite force that the weight of your body generates in the field of gravity. It travels up through your CTS, water, bones. Your muscles provide the tension the holds the whole thing together.

Complete and utter B.S.

Take an anatomy and physiology course.

[Fu-Pow]

Respecftully disagree.

No one can really argue about the ground reaction force. For every force generated there is an equal and opposite force generated. I believe Newton said that. Anything in the field of earths gravitational pull that is also in contact with its surface is going to generate a downward force ie F=ma, in this case a=gravity. Therefore an upward force is generated up through the body.

Whether you do IMA, MMA or EMA this much is true.

What differs in each case is how one channels that ground reaction force. Is it primarily through the bones, water and connective tissue or is it by "holding on" with the muscles.

FP

[Charles T Rose]

I believe the term you are searching for is tensegrity...google it

[Becca]

The problem with lifting weights for internal martial arts is that it creates incontinuities in the body's musculo-skeletal system. That means some muscles get short/tense and some get elongated/stretchted as a result. Its not weightlifting per se but any exercises that has discontinous tension.

The problems you are talking about are only a problem for those who never use thier body the way a martial artist would. Even hard core lifters are starting to get the message. If you brouse the medical help forums at most body building sites, you'll find discussions of yoga vs. tai chi for help with muscular recovery and joint wellness.

[cjurakpt]

The problem with lifting weights for internal martial arts is that it creates incontinuities in the body's musculo-skeletal system. That means some muscles get short/tense and some get elongated/stretchted as a result. Its not weightlifting per se but any exercises that has discontinous tension.

anything can create "incontinuties" as you say - the way that you walk, sit, sleep, drive, work, etc. are all factors that can contribute to this; lifting weights is no different - like anything, it is the way in which you do it that will create a certain type of results; for example, if you hyper train your biceps, pecs and lats, you will be more prone to a flexion-biased posture anteriorly, which will create an imbalance relative to the anti-gravity extensor muscles (e.g. - lower traps, serratus, rhoboids, triceps, rotator cuff) which already tend to be inhibited / overstretched, given that we are already flexor biased to begin with, and that structurally we are not optimally adapted to live upright in gravity; so this can cause problems; on the other hand, if you emphasize strengthening of the anti-grav extensors, you work towards assiting vertical function in gravity; of course, you could still do those exercises "incorrectly", but at least you are not "feeding" flexor muscles that are already predisposed to hypertonicity

If you look at the human body, its not the muscles alone that hold it upright. The body is a big biotensegrity structure. There must be tonus in the muscles but the tonus must be continuous throughout the structure to maintain the tensegrity.

but at the same time, the organism, being non-linear and adaptative at a certain level, is able to compensate for this to varying degrees without there being any symptomatic signs of dysfunction...

The bones, water and connective tissue are the compressive elements in the tension network and the muscles are the tension elements. So you have a balance of forces pulling in and down (muscles) and up and out (connective tissue, water, bones). If you start introducing extra tension in a certain point in the network you start messing up the balance.

true, but again, at what point does this occur? it sounds nice in theory, but what are the pragmatics? this is the trick of figuring out what impact a given exercise has on a given individual; also, there are tensional elements within the CTS: tensegrity is based on continuous tension / discontinuous compression, and CT has both - this is probably what allows for compensation of agonist / antagonist force couple imbalances (Vladimir Janda, MD and Shirley Sahrman ,PhD, PT are two of the most widely recognized "authorities" in regards to this concept); so again, weight training per se is not the issue, it's what you train and how, which is a bit more complex to figure out and typically, at least with a clinicl population, needs to be individualized to varying degrees

I think doing whole body exercises can be helpful though and if done with the right intention and structure. For example, I do Hindu pushups and Turkish get-ups. Those involve the whole body and you can distribute the tension across the body.

it's true that some types of movement / exercise is more conducie to this concept: Feldenkreis, Alexander Technique, Laban, Arika Gym, etc. - all attempts to do what you are suggesting in various contexts; obviously, taiji is useful, in terms of it being a slow-moving practice at first, which allows you the opportunity to "observe' what it feels like to move while keeping the relative net tensions in the system equal

Here's a picture on this cover of a xing yi guy doing what look like Hindu pushups:

nice - he's working on lengthening hamstrings, opening up pelvic floor, and stretching hip flexors: all good stuff from a postural integrity perspective

[Fu-Pow]

anything can create "incontinuties" as you say - the way that you walk, sit, sleep, drive, work, etc. are all factors that can contribute to this; lifting weights is no different - like anything, it is the way in which you do it that will create a certain type of results; for example, if you hyper train your biceps, pecs and lats, you will be more prone to a flexion-biased posture anteriorly, which will create an imbalance relative to the anti-gravity extensor muscles (e.g. - lower traps, serratus, rhoboids, triceps, rotator cuff) which already tend to be inhibited / overstretched, given that we are already flexor biased to begin with, and that structurally we are not optimally adapted to live upright in gravity; so this can cause problems; on the other hand, if you emphasize strengthening of the anti-grav extensors, you work towards assiting vertical function in gravity; of course, you could still do those exercises "incorrectly", but at least you are not "feeding" flexor muscles that are already predisposed to hypertonicity

Well articulated.

but at the same time, the organism, being non-linear and adaptative at a certain level, is able to compensate for this to varying degrees without there being any symptomatic signs of dysfunction...

Yes. However, repetitive "adaptation" will lead to a less efficient but still functioning organism.

true, but again, at what point does this occur? it sounds nice in theory, but what are the pragmatics? this is the trick of figuring out what impact a given exercise has on a given individual; also, there are tensional elements within the CTS:

I certainly don't have the whole thing worked out. I'm just trying to look at something that at first appears totally "mystical" from a rational perspective...no chi balls!!!

tensegrity is based on continuous tension / discontinuous compression, and CT has both - this is probably what allows for compensation of agonist / antagonist force couple imbalances (Vladimir Janda, MD and Shirley Sahrman ,PhD, PT are two of the most widely recognized "authorities" in regards to this concept); so again, weight training per se is not the issue, it's what you train and how, which is a bit more complex to figure out and typically, at least with a clinicl population, needs to be individualized to varying degrees

Agree. I don't think weight training in itself is not "bad." It depends on the context. If you are
in PT or rehab then you may need weight lifting to build up an injured muscle. And I think for any healthy person that exercises that are more "whole body" can be good to improve the overall tonus of muscles.

However, as an "internal" martial artist you should definitely avoid weight lifting that is aimed at enlarging or strengthening a particular muscle or muscle group. This creates tensional imbalance.

it's true that some types of movement / exercise is more conducie to this concept: Feldenkreis, Alexander Technique, Laban, Arika Gym, etc. - all attempts to do what you are suggesting in various contexts; obviously, taiji is useful, in terms of it being a slow-moving practice at first, which allows you the opportunity to "observe' what it feels like to move while keeping the relative net tensions in the system equal

Yes I'm interested in those movement studies because they seem to be saying
the same things as the Taiji classics but from a western perspective.

nice - he's working on lengthening hamstrings, opening up pelvic floor, and stretching hip flexors: all good stuff from a postural integrity perspective

It looks like a good book. Has anyone here read it?

[cjurakpt]

Yes. However, repetitive "adaptation" will lead to a less efficient but still functioning organism.

of course; the question is, at what point does someone notice that this is the case? I mean, if there is an imbalance, what does it take to "feel" this before you are symptomatic? this is what, to me, is the best form of therapy - training people to truly notice what this is like before they have pain...a very interesting process indeed...

Agree. I don't think weight training in itself is not "bad." It depends on the context. If you are in PT or rehab then you may need weight lifting to build up an injured muscle. And I think for any healthy person that exercises that are more "whole body" can be good to improve the overall tonus of muscles.

well, first off, I don't really believe in "strengthening" an injured muscle per se (that's a whole other discussion); I also agree that integrated movement activities are useful - although doing things in relative isolation can be of great benefit as well - it just depends on what you are trying to do and where the person is at - some people are better off isolating because trying to do whole body is too hard for them (better to have them lie down and pay attention to their breathing to start with anyway);

However, as an "internal" martial artist you should definitely avoid weight lifting that is aimed at enlarging or strengthening a particular muscle or muscle group. This creates tensional imbalance.

well, i'd say that for anyone - I believe in letting the function dictate the structure (in this case) - anything else on top of that is to augment or accommodate (very vague concept, I know); although, consider that, it is actually be possible for someone to do this and to sacrifice some of the "balance" to have some enhanced functional strength, and in the long run, they probably wouldn't notice any detrimental effects: we do have a certain amount of leeway in the system to accommodate "imbalance" without any real negative outcome...

Yes I'm interested in those movement studies because they seem to be saying the same things as the Taiji classics but from a western perspective.

well, Feldenkreis was a judoka who worked personally with Kano, Alexander seems to have been influenced by something Eastern (AT Rule #1: the head should be "free and away" - sound familiar?), and Arika gym has some Asian influence I think - nothing is pure...