How important is lineage to you when picking a school/inst.

[neilhytholt]

neighholt...
Lineage is just an excuse for not doing a lot of applications. If they were effective fighters they wouldn't need to talk about lineage.

Lineage is a way they can try to say that at some point back there was a decent fighter, to make up for their own shortcomings.
Today 02:57 PM


well your just and idiot , OK maybe thats a little harsh but the more posts you make the more I wonder......

Well what is the point of lineage? If you find a great fighter, do you really care what his lineage is? Who his grand-teacher was?

If somebody can teach you to be the best fighter in the world, do you really care what the lineage is?

No, right? If you do, if you wouldn't study with somebody who would make you the best fighter, then I'd have to say you're a fool.

Therefore, in CMA circles, I have yet to meet a single CMA fighter who could beat the best MMA and Muay Thai fighters. NOT ONE. Yet many of them have impeccable lineages -- some great fighter somewhere back, Yang, Sun, whoever.

So does it matter if they have a great lineage, if they can't fight worth a crap? No, right?

So it would appear that lineage is nothing more than an attempt by mediocre fighters to justify their existence.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Questions like this make no sense ultimately because what you see when you go to a school to check it out TOTALLY depends on where YOU are at at that point in time.

You wont notice what you aren't ready to notice, so you wont really know if a teacher or school is right for where you want to go unless you already are at a stage that you can know what exactly you are observing.

A beginner and an experienced student are two completely different things, with different needs, etc.

[Becca]

Niel, would you go to a push hands turny to find a good mixed martial artist? If not, then stop using the lack of good traditional kung fu in MMA as a defence.

But I agree with refusing to study with the best due to a "lack of credentials". That's just 'tarded...

[neilhytholt]

Questions like this make no sense ultimately because what you see when you go to a school to check it out TOTALLY depends on where YOU are at at that point in time.

You wont notice what you aren't ready to notice, so you wont really know if a teacher or school is right for where you want to go unless you already are at a stage that you can know what exactly you are observing.

A beginner and an experienced student are two completely different things, with different needs, etc.

Well, I'm sorry, but after being screwed over by teachers who claim eventually they teach apps, eventually doing the taiji form might lead to some fighting skill, you don't need partner practice, pay them $60-$100 per hour, sign up for their BB program, etc.

It's all B.S. Lineage is B.S. If they can't make you a good fighter, they aren't worth a penny.

Let's get real and say it like it is. CMA is full of worthless teachers justifying their existence on lineage, and people who go along with it because they don't really want to learn to fight -- they'd rather live in a fantasy.

[Becca]

Questions like this make no sense ultimately because what you see when you go to a school to check it out TOTALLY depends on where YOU are at at that point in time.

You wont notice what you aren't ready to notice, so you wont really know if a teacher or school is right for where you want to go unless you already are at a stage that you can know what exactly you are observing.

A beginner and an experienced student are two completely different things, with different needs, etc.

Much truth to this.

[neilhytholt]

Niel, would you go to a push hands turny to find a good mixed martial artist? If not, then stop using the lack of good traditional kung fu in MMA as a defence.

But I agree with refusing to study with the best due to a "lack of credentials". That's just 'tarded...

Exactly ... I shouldn't go to a CMA teacher to learn to self defense and fighting applications. Let's just say it like it is.

I guess I was just too stupid to get that this entire time.

The ironic thing is, they probably got it. While they were taking my money and feeding me lies, with a smile on their face ... they understood that they were fleecing me. I was just too stupid.

[Becca]

I've seen some that are good with self defence and fighting. But you usually need to be a patient person to get anything out of it. I'm guessing you are not?

Nothing wrong with that. And if badmouthing those who do have the patience to search out the good ones and take the time to really learn it makes you feel better... so be it.

[neilhytholt]

I've seen some that are good with self defence and fighting. But you usually need to be a patient person to get anything out of it. I'm guessing you are not?

Nothing wrong with that. And if badmouthing those who do have the patience to search out the good ones and take the time to really learn it makes you feel better... so be it.

Is 15 years patient? Yes, I think that counts as patience.

Knifefighter is totally right about this. I always defended CMA but bottom line is Knifefighter is right on.

You want to learn to fight take boxing/MMA/Jujitsu ... doing forms for years isn't going to make you a good fighter.

[Sal Canzonieri]

And talking about being a "fighter" shows that someone doesn't really understand CMA at all.

CMA is about stopping a fight, not fighting.

Fighting is a sport, it is not self defense. It is a gladitorial type of sport (MMA).
It has not one thing to do with the art of self defense.

99.9% of the time you will have use martial arts for self defense you will not be up against a MMA type of gladiator person.
Unless you train to be a gladiator you will not be a gladiator.

Self defense on the other hand should be able to be done by ANYONE that learns self defense.
You do not need strength for self defense.

The small weak person can and has many times through out thousands of years used self defense when dealing with an attacker like a bull fighter deals with a bull.

Does the bull fighter fight the bull? No way. The bull fighter does EVERYTHING that CMA teaches (assuming that you are learning real CMA and not crap). The bull fighter evades, redirects, and traps the bull into hurting itself. The bull fighter never fights the bull on the bull's terms.

Self defense is bull fighting, it is not trading of blows against a gladiator.

To compare a self defense oriented CMA against MMA sports is RETARDED, and shows a foundamental nonunderstanding of what martial arts even is in the first place, sorry.

CMA are only about dealing with an ambush and evading, redirecting, and trapping the opponent's incoming energy, not attacking the attacker by trading of strikes the fastest, the strongest, the smartest, the coolest, etc. SPORT FIGHTING and Street Fighting is not self defense it is two people trying to be the LUCKIEST person against the other.

Wushu literally means "stop the fight". It is a concept and fighting is another concept with two contradictory ends.
Even the military teaches people to use self defense in hand to hand combat situations, not to "fight" the other person and play their game, and ultimately lose. If you play the other person's game, you must lose.

I've been learning CMA since 1975, I grow up in Newark NJ, having to fight my way to school and back, to the store, to anything. We learned what works and what doesn't. We certainly learned that sports fighting isn't self defense.
I also learned boxing, my close ancestor was 1930s world champion.
Boxing failed me in a self defense situation, I learned to use it for sport only. Once I started CMA I saw how the concept of stopping the fight (neutralizing the incoming attack) works everytime.

I have used CMA for over 30 years now for self defense all over the world in my travels, and it worked everytime. I have used Shaui Jiao, Tong Bei, Shaolin, Ba Gua, Tai Tzu, Tai Ji, Xing Yi movements to defend myself, as if they were one style.

Maybe if you REALLY studied to the point of really understanding self defense, then CMA would make sense to you enough to use it.

Maybe it is time to not blame others for your lack of insight and begin to look at your self instead.

I've been in classes with you, and I saw that you didn't get it. Blame the teachers for you not really absorbing what they teach, fine. Life will go on regardless.

[neilhytholt]

And talking about being a "fighter" shows that someone doesn't really understand CMA at all.

CMA is about stopping a fight, not fighting.

Fighting is a spot, it is not self defense. It is a gladitorial type of sport (MMA).
It has not one thing to do with the art of self defense.

Fighting, stopping a fight, same difference. If you can't beat an MMA fighter you sure aren't going to be able to stop the fight.

Actually, you will stop the fight. He'll pummel you and you'll lose. That will stop the fight.

I guess wushu really means 'to lose'.

[xcakid]

Exactly ... I shouldn't go to a CMA teacher to learn to self defense and fighting applications. Let's just say it like it is.

I have different result. I have taken CMA for the most part. Exception of 4yrs TaeKwonDo. I have not been in an MMA ring fight. However, I have been in real life altercations. 2 I have posted on this forum and a few others. I have won each and everyone with minimal to no damage on my person. But like you said, as a CMA'st, I would probably not fair well in MMA. Let's add throat strikes, spitting, kicking groin, eye gouges and being able to pull a gun or overall dirty fighting and I may be able to hold my own.

[neilhytholt]

I have different result. I have taken CMA for the most part. Exception of 4yrs TaeKwonDo. I have not been in an MMA ring fight. However, I have been in real life altercations. 2 I have posted on this forum and a few others. I have won each and everyone with minimal to no damage on my person. But like you said, as a CMA'st, I would probably not fair well in MMA. Let's add throat strikes, spitting, kicking groin, eye gouges and overall dirty fighting and I may be able to hold my own.

Well, I've met some good MMA fighters and I don't think for one second that I could beat them, even with dirty tactics. They're faster, bigger and more experienced.

And from what I've run into on 'the street', there are a lot of people on 'the street' that I don't think I could beat either. Angry people running around, people on meth and stuff.

Bottom line is there isn't enough apps time in most CMA classes. I've been banging my head against that for a long time now, but it's obvious that I've been looking for the wrong thing. I've been looking for apps oriented CMA.

What I should have been looking for was good MMA.

[Water-quan]

for me lineage is only about legitimacy. i dont want to learn from a liar or fraud. otherwise the lesson speaks for itself.

I can understand that, and if someone wants to learn a genuine art, then they want to find someone who knows it. But, obviously some famous teachers have a lot of students, and legitimacy is no indication of skill level, of course.

There is another aspect - when people really ask themselves the most important question: "why do I want to learn kung fu", then part of it is often the feeling of belonging to something - quite a natural desire, i think... which makes lineage more important to some than others.

[Water-quan]

Lineage is a way they can try to say that at some point back there was a decent fighter, to make up for their own shortcomings.

Yes, i think there is a lot of truth in that.

[Water-quan]

You wont notice what you aren't ready to notice,

Well, that is extremely wise! Not just for martial arts but for life in genral! Thanks!